Master Later Life Lending - By Air

Can Comprehensive Conversations Transform the Future of Mortgage Advice?

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In this episode of the *Master Later Life Lending* podcast, host Paul Glynn sits down with Colin Bell from Perenna and Emma Graham from Hodge to explore the evolving landscape of later life lending. As mortgage advisors, you’ll gain valuable insights into the unique financial needs of traditional equity release customers and the emerging younger later-life borrowers. 

We dive deep into the myths and misconceptions surrounding equity release, discuss innovative solutions like retirement interest-only (RIO) and term interest-only mortgages, and examine how demographic trends are reshaping the market. Discover how comprehensive conversations can unlock new opportunities for your clients and why it's crucial to adapt your advice to meet the changing needs of over-50s borrowers.

Whether you're looking to expand your product knowledge, improve client outcomes, or simply stay ahead of market trends, this episode offers actionable advice to enhance your practice. Tune in to learn how to provide better support to your clients and grow your business in this rapidly evolving sector. 

Don't miss out—hit play now and transform your approach to later life lending!

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Paul Glynn:

Hello and welcome to the Master Later Life Lending podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of later life lending, equity release and the evolving needs of borrowers that are over the age of 50. I'm your host, paul Glynn, and I'm thrilled to have you with us today. In this episode, we're diving into the characteristics and financial profiles of traditional equity release customers and the innovative solutions for emerging later life customers. We'll address the myths and the misconceptions about equity release, explore demographic trends, discuss newer products like retirement interest only and term interest only mortgages. And joining us today are Colin Bell from Perenna and Emma Graham from Hodge. Perenna is a mortgage lender offering innovative long-term fixed rate mortgages to provide stability and certainty to borrowers, and Hodge is a leading specialist in retirement interest-only mortgages, later life lending solutions, and is dedicated to helping customers achieve their financial goals.

Paul Glynn:

So, without further ado, let's get started and welcome our guests, colin Bell and Emma Graham. I'll come to both of you in a second to give a little bit more detail on the offerings from each of your organizations and a bit more about your roles, but let's get started. So, colin, if we come to you first, tell us a bit more about you and a bit more about your organization and the role you perform in it.

Colin Bell:

Yeah, hi, thanks for having me, colin Bell from Perenna. I'm one of the founders of Perenna and the COO, so I'm looking after the customer journey, really from the front end right through into underwriting operations, collection servicing, as well as the technology estate there. From the start got a banking license and here we are now live and lending.

Paul Glynn:

Brilliant, quite exciting to join a new organization and be part of that from the ground up. So fascinating to hear more about that as we move through the through the session, and Emma tell us a bit more about you and your role in your organization yeah, hi, I'm Emma Graham and I'm a business development director at Hodge.

Emma Graham:

I've been at Hodge now for just coming up to five years. Um, prior to that, I was in the kind of like mainstream lending landscape. I used to work for a mutual building society. I did have a brief stint working in the UAE within a mortgage product capacity as well, but it's been pretty much brokers and mortgages for the last sort of 25 years for me and I think, in terms of our offering, yes, it's very much about, you know, meeting those changing needs of borrowers over the age of 50. We've got the re-owned mortgage term interest only and so forth. And, yeah, looking forward to having a good conversation about that.

Paul Glynn:

Brilliant and thank you for both of you, just for spending the time with us today. It's brilliant to have one of our newest ambassador partners and one of our longest standing ambassador partners with us today. So let's get straight into it then. In terms of the questions, so AIR has spent a lot of this year talking about a comprehensive conversations movement and how important it is to put affordability at the heart of the process for firms, to make sure they're asking all of those questions around what customers can afford to pay and want to pay, and putting the right challenge in at that point in time. And all of that really is designed to flush out two or three things. The first is to make sure that the breadth of product options, from traditional mortgage world through to later life lending, are open for that customer for as long as possible. Open for that customer for as long as possible.

Paul Glynn:

Secondly, to ensure that that customer understands the implications of picking a roll-up product versus a more traditional product in the mortgage world, compared to what that roll-up product would have looked like in the equity release world, and that they can quantify the cost of satisfying their needs through that type of product. And then, thirdly, it's about encouraging firms to make those decisions around, whether they want to expand their advice offering to cover both parts of that or the full breadth of that spectrum, or make the decision to build a referral capability. So we've spent six months building that ability out, having that debate in the market. We've got around 500 signatories, whether they're firms or individuals or networks, signed up to that movement now. So just want to get your thoughts on on the importance of of that comprehensive conversation. So why? Why I'll come to you first, colin why is the comprehensive conversation an important tool to help advisors address the changing needs of over 50s borrowers?

Colin Bell:

I think it's great what you're doing. Firstly and I think it's much needed and it's also one of the reasons we set up Perenna is that you know, lending beyond 50 is now becoming more and more important and more and more necessary. Actually, average life now is kind of 80, so you're spending half of your time beyond 50, half your kind of post-child's time beyond 50. And a lot of equity is tied up in housing because it's a natural way to save money. We don't have an age restriction, so firstly, we wanted to come out and say it doesn't matter what age you are. If you can afford a mortgage, you should be able to take a mortgage. And the reason for that is that, with all of this equity being tied up in property, people are very restricted and actually 50-year-olds, 55-year-olds, find it very difficult to get a mortgage with a decent term, and that's what we wanted to cure. People have different needs nowadays Living longer, money tied up in property, good incomes in retirement but they can't access that cash. It's locked up in property and that's not necessarily what everyone wants or needs. So we wanted to introduce products that allow people to borrow right the way through their life at any age, from young to old, as you don't consider later life lending to be 50, as I said earlier, it's kind of you're halfway through your life really, rather than in your later life, I consider it more midlife, and so we need to deliver to those customer needs at that age.

Colin Bell:

The option in the past has been equity release, but that's not for everyone. We need to broaden it. We need to broaden it into traditional mortgages, which is what Peren has done and other lenders have done Rios, term interest only, or just a standard repayment mortgage for 40 years. Our concept as well is to give stability, and I think that's also important. In retirement, your income doesn't fluctuate, it's pretty steady. It rises with inflation. You don't want shocks, so we fix our mortgages all the way through, so we give stability and no age restriction, and I think that's great for this concept great for the movement, and are you finding the same thing from your perspective, Emma?

Emma Graham:

finding the same thing from from your perspective, emma?

Emma Graham:

What?

Emma Graham:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I completely agree with what you're saying there, colin, and I think you know I was lucky enough, I suppose, to go out on the road with um Dan Holden, who heads up the Air Academy, for a number of um later life collabs over the last, you know, last few months, and I think for me to hear the way that Dan articulates the power of comprehensive conversations has been really illuminating.

Emma Graham:

Um, he talks about the comprehensive conversation movement as being, you know, for advisors to be relational and not transactional and so to kind of, you know, look at the mortgage almost as a journey, a financial journey, and not just that kind of one-time transaction. So you've got the mortgage being that kind of journey, going through from first home through to last home, through all the life stages that that one comes across, be it, you know, divorce, upsizing, downsizing, etc. Etc. So I think that whole movement has really changed the way in which brokers view mortgages and customers. And I think the other really key thing for me here with the kind of comprehensive conversations campaign is the fact that it makes the mortgage market think of the mortgage market market as that, as one entity and not having those sub-segments of market. You've got a later life market, you've got a mainstream market, you've got a specialist market. So I think it does a really, really good job of helping lenders, advisors and distributors to collaborate a little bit more, if that makes sense.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, because that partly was what worried us in some of the original research was there's a danger that people see it as two markets, not one Absolutely. There's only one set of over 50s customers and there are some excellent solutions to problems at either end of that spectrum and it's an advice-rich area and advice really is the product, not the end lender-built financial services product. It's the advice really.

Emma Graham:

Absolutely, and I think that was a point that Dan kept sort of reiterating, you know was the fact that it's knowing your customers really well, asking those questions, listening, you know, and just being more I don't know insightful and perceptive as to the challenges that over 50s borrowers are experiencing today. I think you know, I think I'm probably a perfect example. I'm 50. I know I don't look in any way, shape or form, but my existing mortgage matures when I'm 67. So I've got a 12 year old daughter, I've got elderly parents, so I'm probably one of those emerging later life borrowers that advisors are going to be speaking to in the coming years. You know it's it's quite stressful, you know, financially planning for retirement, smaller pensions, all of that kind of stuff, and I think this movement really brings that to the forefront of brokers minds, which is just brilliant yeah, it's good, and it's not uncommon to see sort of myth busting um work done by bdms or by lenders in in in different parts of the market.

Paul Glynn:

I I suppose what what you're outlining there, emma, is that there there are now very different customer profiles emerging in the market. So, col Colin, what thoughts have you got from Perenna's perspective on emerging needs for customers and typical profiles and how they've changed and how firms need to really think differently about some of their maybe preconceptions they've got before?

Colin Bell:

Yeah, there's a real polarisation now between the kind of psychology of borrowers at different ages. The youth of today, I think, are comfortable with taking debt throughout their lives. They're going to live a lot longer than we are probably be the hundred year generation. They're going to require, you know, income and equity right the way through their lives. They also rent everything. So you know they're used to kind of borrowing, renting.

Colin Bell:

The older generation, however, the kind of over 70s of today, all rushed to pay off their mortgage by the time they hit 50. They're all sat on property wealth. They don't necessarily have much in savings. They have a good pension provision, because that age group did have good pension provision when they were working, when they were working, but actually all their cash is tied up. And then you have the 50s, which I also sit in in the middle, who have one foot in either camp. They either want to repay all their debt or they're happy to carry debt.

Colin Bell:

This goes back to what you were saying earlier and really the mortgage is now becoming a tool. It's a tool to get you on the property ladder when you're young, of course, because you need it. Property prices are high. It's very difficult to get on the ladder. So you need a mortgage to buy a home, your first home but actually it's a tool you can dip into through the whole of your life and that's really what we're trying to expand the market into. And this is where advisors come in.

Colin Bell:

You may have paid off your mortgage, but actually later in life you may need some of that cash back out of your property, so you may want to come back into it. If you've got good income, good affordability, why not? Why shouldn't you take equity out of your property and enjoy it, help your kids out getting on the property ladder or just enjoy it yourself? You've earned it, you've saved it, so why not? So the mortgage is becoming a tool. It's a tool for you to release your wealth and use your wealth as you choose, rather than it just being to buy your first home and to pay it off as quickly as possible.

Colin Bell:

Now, for some people, they do want to pay it off and don't want to mortgage again. That's absolutely fine. That's where the advisors come into it. But for others, there is a lot of equity over 3 trillion of equity in the over 50 sat in property. You know that should be enjoyed. And there's also inheritance tax planning that can also be looked at when advising on mortgages later in life. So, yeah, it's a tool. It's a tool to release your wealth, to use your wealth as you choose and as you want, rather than having it all locked away.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, colin and Emma. Does that match your experience?

Emma Graham:

Yeah, 100%. I think, as a sales team at Hodge, we're fast coming around to the idea whereby, like you've quite rightly said, colin, the mortgage is a a tool to, you know, acquire the equity and then utilize the equity. I think that's kind of the way that we're starting to view that and, and I think, particularly with the kind of 50s and 60s borrowers that we're seeing now, obviously we're data driven, as I'm sure you are as well, and you know we have to keep on consistently changing our products to meet the needs, and we've just not stopped enhancing criteria max age, max ltv we bought in repayment as an option, probably about two years ago, so I think it's just evolving constantly though.

Paul Glynn:

Those needs, um, yeah, but yeah, totally agree with your, your point of view there I'm interested in the point on that, the kind of changes in the psychology of the, the older borrower, I think. Um, how does an advisor adapt to that? Because preconceptions of you know, which we drew out in our comprehensive conversations report, was that typically if you take any mortgage out before the year 2000, you were quite likely to be of a mindset to pay it off by the time you were in your late 40s, by 50, have some small window, which we all know is never enough, to accumulate some pension funds and then go into a retirement phase Post-2000, that's definitely not happened. As you both drew out earlier, people are taking mortgages out later and for longer into retirement. So you know, how does the advisor work through the psychology of the customer in terms of their attitude to debt and to repayment?

Colin Bell:

this is the real challenge, I think, because, as I said earlier, you know the psychology of the older demographic is is not to carry debt when they're retired. And this is where advisors really do come in. It's about trust. It's about showing them what they can achieve, have that is safe for them, that's within their affordability, that allows them to actually release equity to spend on their needs and it could be healthcare, it could be enjoyment, it could be assisting their children. But this is really an advisor-led market convincing the over 60s and over 70s that actually it's fine to have a mortgage at that age, as long as you can afford it. It's a real challenge. It will take time and it's also referrals. One elderly couple will talk to another one and say look what I've done. Equity Release was trying to do that and that's one product. And the good thing now is that we have different types of products for different types of needs alongside the Equity Release type of concept. But it's yeah, it's talking about it, it's showing them that it's okay, it's advising people and later in life, obviously you do need proper advice.

Colin Bell:

You need to understand what you're getting here. You are taking on a mortgage. There are requirements of that mortgage. There are restrictions of that mortgage and elderly people need to also understand that. But I don't consider 50s and 60s to be to be elderly at all, so that demographic you know is is very much aware of what mortgages are and aware of their, their own needs. So I sit in that camp. My parents are around. They're in their 80s, they have all the equity in their property and no mortgage. All their wealth is there. I don't need it. I'm in my 50s and we're fine, right? They're not enjoying that wealth, it's just locked up in their home. Convincing them to take on a mortgage would be really difficult because they've just not had a mortgage for 20, 30 years.

Paul Glynn:

It's just alien to them. So what more can we do as an industry to help that education process with customers?

Emma Graham:

I think there's a lot we can do and I think you know first time buyers, for instance. So we know the average age of a first time buyer today is 34. I think if you're based in London, in the southeast, your first time buyer is probably around the age of 37. So you know longer mortgage terms, the affordability constraints we're finding today. Those customers are going to be landing into retirement, there's no doubt, into their mid 70s and even even longer, potentially for the whole of their life, I suppose. So I think that you know mainstream mortgage advisors, as a start for 10, need to start advising on those late life products much earlier in the mortgage journey, giving them some form of consideration, because I think there's definitely a market for that and I think I suppose the other challenge for advisors as well, it all comes down to being quite intuitive and perceptive.

Emma Graham:

I think you just touched on it now. You know we're in our 50s, we're in our prime. You know I don't feel like I'm a later life borrower. I really don't. You know, and I think there's a piece of work we did a couple of weeks ago and it's just gone out on social about the queenager and it's a new kind of like cohort of customers who are coming up.

Emma Graham:

They're women, they're between the ages of 45 and 60. They're purpose driven. They want to view their 50s and 60s as a time to thrive and live their best lives. You know socialize with friends, take the holiday. You know, use the equity, as you quite rightly alluded to, in the property. So I think that as a broker, you've got to be really aware of all these nuances that customers hold with them now. So it's definitely about knowing your customer more deeply and asking more questions. I suppose because you know that traditional later life borrower who was putting on a pair of slippers, smoking a pipe, looking to go down the bowls club that doesn't really exist now. You know they're very active, they're looking after grandkids, they're heavily involved in their communities. It's a completely different customer cohort now and I think you know I'm sure you do yourself at Perenna but there's, you know, lots and lots of tools online that all the lenders in this space offer to help brokers understand what those new customers do look like. So it's there for the taking, I think, really.

Paul Glynn:

But it does mean people need to be alert to that shift.

Colin Bell:

They need to be aware. So we need awareness out there, and that's again where advisors and firms such as yourself come in. There needs to be awareness that actually you can get a mortgage Mistbusting. You know, some lenders don't have maximum ages. Some lenders will lend beyond 75.

Colin Bell:

One of the first mortgages we closed at Prerna after we launched was to a 71-year-old who came to us and said my lender's telling me I've only got four years left and I need to repay this interest-only mortgage. I can afford it, I'm paying it, I've got good pension income. This interest-only mortgage, I can afford it, I'm paying it, I've got good pension income. And she said to us we want to live in this house until we want to leave the house, either through end of life or moving into care or downsizing or whatever it may be. And we gave them a 40-year repayment mortgage. Therefore the timing is in their control. It's in control of the customer and the advisor and she's happy she doesn't have this hanging over her that in four years' time I've got to sell. I don't want to sell. She loves the house. She wants to stay there until she's ready to move on, not at the kind of request of the lender. So affordability is good, why not?

Emma Graham:

You raise a really good point there as well about, you know, looking at the customers as well, and I think that I was talking to you both the other day about my sister-in-law, who's 54, lives in London, genuine first time buyer degree, educated her and my brother-in-law but got some inheritance and both said to me we're 54, 55, we can't get a mortgage, we can't get a first-time mortgage, and it's like, oh my goodness, you absolutely can. So again, I think, paul, going back to your point about what can advisors do, it's really like making sure that customers know they can get a financial solution when they're in their 50s and 60s. And there's huge, huge numbers of people out there who just don't think they can, and I think it's. You know you're doing a great job with what you're doing now, but I think there's more that we can do with trade bodies, I think with lenders, you know, distributors, all coming together to sort of get to the end consumer and let them know there are these options available.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, and that's the thinking behind the comprehensive conversations movement.

Paul Glynn:

It wasn't a one-off run for a quarter piece of marketing.

Paul Glynn:

It's designed to be something that's really at the heart of everything that air does now for a very prolonged period of time, but the view is we would get the stone rolling and then other people would be able to run with it as well, and and hopefully that's what we're on the edge of now, with organizations like yours pushing the same kind of thought process and and shifting mindset across the market. I think it's interesting, though you say we need to do more to help education at the consumer level, and I think we we should all own that as organizations in the marketplace. Working with other parties is definitely something we should explore, but and I just I just want to pick up on the education piece in the mortgage broker context, where you know, how can an advisor that has worked really hard to build up an established mortgage practice take some practical steps to put comprehensive conversations and a comprehensive conversation strategy into their mortgage review process so that some of those things we've talked about surface much earlier than four years before the end of a term?

Emma Graham:

yeah, you know what confirms doing a practical sense with mortgage reviews yeah, I think there's lots and lots of things that you can do. I think, to be fair, the air academy you know you've got some fantastic accreditations on there. Um, in fact, my team are actually starting to go through those themselves at the moment to make sure we fully understand everything, because that's what we need to do. Bdms I mean there are some fantastic BDMs out there that are all too willing to come in, spend time with firms and really talk you through the nuances of a Rio versus a term interest only, versus a standard residential mortgage with a long term that can take you into your 80s and 90s. Um, there's a lot of um collateral out there online as well for brokers to utilize.

Emma Graham:

And I think you know I mentioned the sort of collaborative events that we we started with yourselves, um, earlier on this year. We're doing more and that came out of that whole need for education and I think what we're doing we've teamed up with the family building society, lng, standard life, your good selves live more. We've all come together and we're going across the whole of the UK to just get in front of brokers and say look, there are these amazing products here for customers. You know, this is what your customers are thinking, feeling these are the challenges they're having. So there's heaps and heaps of opportunity for firms at the moment to get on board and really, you know, broaden their knowledge.

Paul Glynn:

I suppose yeah, it's interesting though, because those, those firms that are proactive in affordability led conversations are those um advisors with that you know, long-standing mortgage skill set. Absolutely, um, they're very good at understanding that position from a customer perspective and drawing out that information. Um, so, in reality, those are the people that we do want to be exploring circumstances with customers to to help you know the the newer style products that are being developed where, whether they're in the on a traditional mortgage chassis or an equity release style chassis, it doesn't matter those newer style products are going to bubble up through great conversations. Absolutely, mortgage brokers have that skill set. We just need to give them the confidence to signpost the newer products and the information to be able to do it. Yeah, so it's an exciting time in the market.

Paul Glynn:

So, I think, a couple of last questions from me. Is there anything that you think AIR could do differently to help advisors build a better framework for engaging with introducers who have older borrowing customers? Um, air's really good, I think, at the sourcing style, the education piece in the sense of the academy. Um, we do have marketing insights and marketing collateral in our marketing hub, but could we do anything differently to help people go out with confidence to talk on a b2b basis with brokers that's an interesting one, I suppose.

Emma Graham:

I think it's funny whenever we go to a collaborative event or we ever go to a network event, we always kind of encourage the brokers in the room to speak to other brokers in the room because they could find a really good referral partner there, you know. So I think maybe there's some sort of potential events that you know you could get behind, where you're getting, you know introducers together to talk about this and then to, I suppose, encourage them to, yeah, connect, collaborate. I suppose it's all about collaboration, really kind of bringing people together, um, because we're trying to start doing that. But I think you're absolutely right, there is a bit of a gap there from a b2b basis certainly challenging existing relationships on a b2b basis.

Paul Glynn:

That comprehensive conversation could be a b2b one absolutely where an established, proven introductory relationship for equity release might be bringing those traditional customers through. You might need to revisit some of those partners to be able to engage in some of this, um, you know, newer customer profile activity. So how many of our members have been to their introducers, for example, and talked about customers from 50 not 55, redefining the later life lending landscape for those introducers? Um, because signpostings is important as writing. Yeah, um, so certainly an area I think we should explore in these podcasts a little bit more in the future. Yeah, to try and help people have that confidence to go out and talk about a broader marketplace and one pool of customers.

Emma Graham:

Yeah, and I think that's really interesting because I think, if we look at the Hodge proposition I mean the 50 plus started off as the 55 plus, I think two years ago it became the 50 plus and I think we're at a point now, based on everything we've talked about so far this morning, whereby we're just going to take age out altogether, because actually if a customer is 40, 40, 45, we're currently turning away customers. Why would we do that? You know they need a 40-year term. What difference does it make? So I think that's that's been quite interesting and I know that's from your perspective. I think that's a big tagline for you, isn't?

Emma Graham:

it age is just a number.

Colin Bell:

Age is just a number absolutely, yeah, we have no age restrictions, but we're lending through the life. And I think think this again comes back to the myths you were talking about earlier and this is where you can help. There are a lot of myths because products in mortgages are all very similar and you know we're starting to break the mold with these kind of products. Equity Release did that. We're doing that with and you're doing that, hodge as well with. You know, with Rios, with term interest only, with more flexibility, no max age, for example. But lending is all affordability led. And there's another area where there are lots of myths At Perenna we fix our mortgages through the whole life, so we don't stress for SVR because we don't have an SVR.

Colin Bell:

Well, people won't remember that because everyone else is stressing for SVR. It's those kind of myths of can I borrow when I'm 50? Can I get a 40-year mortgage when I'm 60? Yes, you can. Actually, with some lenders, you can do these things. So it's case studies, it's education, it's just signposting.

Colin Bell:

Everyone knows about the standard products. We don't need to talk about those so much. They're all just doing the same thing at different price points at different LTVs. Everyone understands that market. What they don't understand is the more specialist areas of lending. We consider this to be mainstream lending, but it's you know, you're lending to older people. You're giving people accessibility beyond 50. Yes, you can get a mortgage that goes beyond your life. The regulators are fine with it, lenders are fine with it. It's just reminding, through case studies, through education, through the, the brokers, but also through consumers, we're also educating consumers. So they go to a broker and say I've heard about this, what do you think? Uh, that's what we do. You know we're pulling in consumers direct to our website and pushing them out to brokers. Uh, so you know, we'll try that education as well, through through third parties as well. I think that's important I agree that, colin.

Paul Glynn:

That's partly where we came from with the navigator tool, with a view that that could be used by both a mortgage experience broker or an equity release experience broker, where it would help them have a in-depth conversation with the customer, be able to challenge on perceptions around what they could afford to pay versus what they wanted to pay and the benefits of making payments and really flushing out, from an education perspective, that the benefits that travel with making payments could be. You've got a better choice of product. It could be that making a payment means there's an economic benefit that could be passed in terms of a lower rate or a higher LTV in the traditional equity release space rather than it being a full-fat equity release product. But without that great conversation, none of that surfaces and the customer, you know, doesn't get the signposting for what could be available to them later in the process.

Colin Bell:

Assessing affordability in retirement is far easier because there isn't the job risk that you have, when you're pre-retirement, stable income no one can take your pension off you. You know, and it's there and typically rising. You know if you're in, if you're in a pension scheme, that's inflation linked. So it's a safe area to lend in, as long as people understand what they're taking on with a mortgage in retirement. And that's where the advisors come in.

Emma Graham:

Absolutely I think I think as well, you know talking about kind of what air could do more of, and talking about, you know, our great market.

Emma Graham:

I'm very passionate about the market we work in it's, it's brilliant and I think we could probably do more, I suppose, as lenders, distributors and advisors, in terms of, like, forming the narrative from a press release perspective, from a wider market perspective. I think you know, we all know that lifetime mortgages haven't had the best press and I think if you look at the Rio mortgage specifically, that also hasn't had the best press. You know you hear quite often about what hasn't taken off as the FCA thought it would, but it's actually building traction, it's establishing itself in the market, it's embedded. There's a bit more awareness now and we're seeing Rio business uptick quite considerably, actually year on year 14% up this year from last year, for instance, and it's currently 25% of the business that we write. So I think that we can probably do more in that regard in terms of writing that narrative and putting that out there to the wider market, if that makes sense. And why do you think that?

Paul Glynn:

that increases in play? Do you think it's because advisors are embracing affordability led conversations more I think so.

Emma Graham:

I've noticed a huge shift in the five years I've been in this market.

Colin Bell:

A huge shift for the positive, definitely yeah advisors will do a case, they'll get comfortable with it, they'll do another one and they'll talk to the people next to them and it's. You know it takes time. This is, this is a market that didn't exist that long ago. So it does take time for for consumers to move and for advisors to move. But the best way is is by seeing one happen or by writing one yourself. Then you kind of, oh that was that worked, it was easy. Actually, it was fine. The customer's really happy. Uh, it's that kind of movement which is a snowball effect which I think we're all seeing. But it's also having all the different options now beyond 50 or beyond 70.

Colin Bell:

Equity release, retirement interest only, term interest only or even a standard repayment mortgage. The lady I spoke about earlier actually wanted to still feel she was paying off a mortgage. So she went for a 40-year repayment mortgage even though she was 71. Because for her own well-being she felt she wanted to still think she was paying off the mortgage and obviously she is. But the chance of seeing that to the end is low. So, yeah, it's optionality, it's being comfortable, it's seeing actually I can do this, I've done it. Customer's happy, the advice was good, everyone gets comfortable.

Emma Graham:

It takes time, though no-transcript.

Colin Bell:

The confidence that these products are fine, yeah, that they can, that they can advise on these products. The regulators the same. You know the regulators allow this. The regulators are not stopping people from writing these kind of mortgages. It's just apprehension or lack of confidence, and that comes with time.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, colin, and we will explore in other aspects of this series the role that technology can play in helping to simplify that complexity. But it does sound as though from the conversation we've just had, that education will play a massive role, both in terms of our organization's support in the advisor and raising awareness of the different product sets that are out there but, more importantly, giving those advisors the confidence to go out and talk to customers that there are many, many new solutions out there. Um, my takeaway from this session is that you know no longer do we have that market where you know as you drew an example out, emma that you know people are aware that they can get a mortgage over 50 in some circumstances. Certainly some older borrowers who work really hard to make that decision to step onto the housing ladder, pay their mortgage off early, may now have a difficult family financial situation where advice could point them to a solution that would be supportive. So we need to raise awareness there, but also those preconceptions that are out there that these later life products are for people in a certain circumstance. You know we've got a big opportunity to myth bust that and break those preconceptions. But it all starts with advice and better, you know better supported advisors. That's certainly a role that we want to take on at Aire to support where possible. So we'll expand the platform to bring new products on and we'll keep increasing the resources available through our academy.

Paul Glynn:

But we're really pleased that organizations like yourselves have embraced the comprehensive conversation. We've had a great one today. So thank you both for your time. Welcome, thank you, and we'll look forward to speaking to you in more depth on these subjects in future podcasts. Thank you both. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps others discover the show. Don't forget to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and follow us on social media for exclusive content. We'll be back next week with another great comprehensive conversation.