Master Later Life Lending - By Air

How are mortgage solutions adapting to the needs of borrowers over 50?

• Paul Glynn • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Unlock the secrets to mastering later life lending and discover how to navigate the complex financial landscape with our esteemed guests, Marie Katch from Legal & General and Ben Waugh from More2Life. Join me, Paul Glynn, as we explore the evolving needs of borrowers over 50, debunk common myths, and provide insights into the future of equity release. Marie reveals her journey into the equity release market, shedding light on the transformation of the industry and the increasing options available to advisors and customers. Ben brings his expertise from More2Life, discussing the broad spectrum of needs among older homeowners, from managing interest-only mortgages to enhancing retirement lifestyles.

Dive into the intricacies of designing financial products for an aging population and the critical role of early financial planning. We tackle the challenges and opportunities faced by product designers in creating innovative yet flexible solutions, such as hybrid mortgages that bridge traditional and lifetime products. This episode underscores the importance of small, impactful adjustments in existing products and the need for advisors to have versatile tools at their disposal. Discover how understanding customers' financial journeys and anticipating future needs can enhance the services provided by advisors and lenders alike.

Flexibility and adaptability are paramount in the ever-evolving mortgage market, and our discussion highlights the necessity of continuous innovation. From technology shifts to demographic changes, staying ahead of trends is key. We emphasize the blurred lines between traditional mortgage sectors and later-life financial products, advocating for a holistic understanding to better serve customers. Learn about the benefits of payment term mortgages and part-and-part solutions for those over 50, and the vital role of education and support in equipping advisors to guide their clients effectively through these financial waters. Don't miss this enlightening episode packed with invaluable insights and practical advice for navigating later life lending.

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Paul Glynn:

Hello and welcome to the Master Later Life Lending podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of later life lending, equity release and the evolving need to borrowers over the age of 50. I'm your host, Paul Glynn, and I'm thrilled to have you with us today. In this episode, we're diving into the characteristics and financial profiles of traditional equity release customers and the innovative solutions for some emerging later life customers. We'll address myths and misconceptions about equity release and we'll explore demographic trends. We'll discuss newer products like partially interest service, lifetime mortgages or PTLTMs, and joining us today are Marie Katch from LNG and Ben Waugh from More2Life. Legal & General is a leading financial services company that offer a range of products and services, including equity release and retirement solutions, and More2Life is a specialist equity release lender providing innovative solutions that are tailored to the needs of older homeowners.

Paul Glynn:

Marie and Ben bring extensive experience and deep insights into the equity release market, making them ideal guests to shed light on some of these important topics. So, without further ado, let's get started and welcome our guests, marie Katch and Ben Wall. First, let's give you both an opportunity to tell our viewers and listeners a little bit more, both about yourselves and the organizations that you work for, because I've given a bit more background on the headlines, but I'm sure there's more that you you want to share with our viewers and listeners. So, marie, would you like to go first?

Marie Katch - L&G:

yeah, um, so I've worked at legal and general for 23 years. I know I don't look that old, but I actually am um and um part of that. I worked in mortgage club and, uh, we set up a later life proposition and that was the first time I got into the realms of later life lending and equity release and I have to say I didn't know much about it, wasn't very really sort of understood it kind of what does it do, how does it help? You know had a few myths that I needed, you know, kind of busting, because I had some preconceptions. And then I got into it and really fully understood and I thought, wow, this is a great product and it really does help customers.

Marie Katch - L&G:

And so from that I came over to Legal General Home Finance, which is our lifetime lender, and set up a sales team there and now do more and more sort of market developments. And the way the market has changed in the last few years is incredible in the fact that you know the amount of options that are available, the amount of advisors who are becoming qualified, the amount of customers that are being helped by this product, and I think from my point of view it's it's to see that everybody's getting on board with what these products can actually do and they are part of a solution. So from my perspective, it's really about the education for so not only our advisor partners, but also for the customers themselves, to know that there are some solutions out there when potentially they might think that they're reasoned thanks very, really looking forward to delving into a bit more of that as we go through this, this podcast session.

Paul Glynn:

So, ben, do you want to tell us a bit more about you and your organization?

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

sure, uh, I joined more to life six years ago, having done 19 years at barclays in a variety of change and operational roles, and then I got the opportunity to do operations and change at More2Life and, yes, I think it's fair to say it's been a roller coaster ride. More2Life established 2011. And since that time we've grown probably sorry, marie to the largest lender in equity release over the last few years, enjoying the thrills and spills of COVID and the fiscal event. But I'm completely on board with what Marie said. This is an incredible vibrant marketplace that helps some of the most needy customers in financial services the over 55s people that are struggling to pay off interest only mortgages at one side, buying camper vans on the other and, more importantly for most customers, funding a better standard of living in retirement with their pension. So, yeah, I love the industry and delighted to be here. Thanks, ben.

Paul Glynn:

So let's get straight into discovering a bit more about some of those topics and issues. So, marie, if I can start with you first, can you outline a bit more about the characteristics and the financial profiles of a traditional equity release customer? And I'm really interested that you mentioned myths at the start of this, so perhaps touch on some of those as we go through as well.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Yeah, I think it's interesting. If you'd asked a few years ago what a typical customer looked like, it would be slightly different to what it is now. We used to have an average age of around 70, 71 as an average age of a customer for lifetime lending, but that has kind of shifted a little bit. And whether that's because they've got different situations that they're going through, whether it's the payment of the interest-only mortgage or whether it's actually they're helping the next generation down and sort of helping them with debt or going through a divorce or anything. So we have seen sort of a little bit of a shift in the age, but fundamentally they are sort of around the 70 plus ages in terms of that and it does change, varying upon the different years.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Like a lot of it was for aspirational things, like like I shared the story with you earlier that I was behind a caravan today that said adventure before dementia, you know, and it is something that they want to go out and do, explore the world, have a new car, have some holidays, fix some roofs, you know that sort of thing. And maybe now, with the way the market's shifted a little bit on rates, we're now looking at those that are looking for proper needs driven reasons for why they need to, you know, help them with some debt or potentially help them with some home improvements, particularly if it's around the domiciliary care, that type of thing, something that they need right now and use the equity they've got in the property. And you know we've been talking about the interest only sort of boom that's come in and has been here and there's still one more to go. That still remains to be seen whether that will still be a dramatic need for people in terms of having a solution, because obviously other lenders may look at forbearance and different strategies so we can potentially see that coming through there. But that still remains to be seen.

Marie Katch - L&G:

But fundamentally, you know, if you think about the equity that over 50s have, over 55s have, it's quite significant and that's going to reach to about 7 trillion in 2034 and we all know that. You know we've got some people at the moment who are going to have underfunded retirement and that type of thing. So the typical sort of aspirational customers. Over a few years ago it was aspirational drivers, but now there are some immediate needs that are coming through and we're seeing customers and I think I'm sure we'll go into sort of like innovation, but that's because we're seeing younger customers start searching for equity release, but it's actually not what they need. They need a sort of an interim product.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, at least, but it's actually not what they need.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

They need a sort of an interim product. Yeah, and is that? Is that what you're finding as well? Ben, in terms of your customer makeup and your experience, I completely echo what uh marie said in terms of you've seen this real shift from, as, I say, it always used to be. You know, perhaps customers in their 70s they'd cleared their mortgage and they wanted to top up for retirement, buy the camper van, go traveling, and I think definitely you know, again, post-covid cost of living crisis, increases in interest rates, all of those things I think have definitely seen a pivot towards more customers that are struggling with cost of living, and it's definitely needs-based, is the way that we've gone and I think you know, if you look more broadly and step back, you can clearly see that.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

You know those 70-year-olds that had got on the housing market 25 to 30 years old, cleared their mortgage, were sitting on a house full of equity, no existing mortgage debt, and now I think there's a lot more of 55, 60, 65-year-olds that didn't buy their first house until they were 35 or 40 or 45. And there's simply not enough long a window to pay off those existing mortgages. So you're also seeing this rise of people that had a traditional mortgage. They don't have time to pay all that off, so they're going into retirement with debt in a way that 10 years ago you wouldn't have seen so many customers go into retirement with an existing mortgage. Sum description interest only, as Marie said, or not?

Paul Glynn:

So, just building on that, what implications do the things that you just both outlined have on advisors and the way that they think about their book of mortgage customers? Because some of them will have spent years acquiring and building up and reviewing customers through what might have been their 20s or 30s. What, what do those firms now need to think about in in some of these emerging demographic trends you both outlined?

Marie Katch - L&G:

I think, um, it's an interesting one, isn't it? I think we kind of have to take an holistic view of a customer. So, for example, you know, an average first-time buyer, as Ben says now, is around 35. It's really about already their first mortgage. They're into the realms of later life. So, depending on their customer demographic, whether they've got younger customers or older customers, they're all transitioning through life and, as a consequence, will need some kind of mortgage provision through life. And I guess for advisors, whether you predominantly work in the residential space or whether you predominantly work in the equity release space, I think it's having that holistic view of where are these customers going. What is their life journey going to look like? What are the potential pitfalls that they might need my services for? You know, sort of like going into their first time buyer, going into their sort of second moving home, going into retirement. How much retirement they got with DB pensions coming out? It's a lot of DTC. What are they going to have prepared for their sort of retirement fund? And what does that look like once they're in retirement? What are their plans? Have they thought about it?

Marie Katch - L&G:

In the past, when you took a mortgage out at 20, you weren't thinking that far ahead, unless you were thinking about a pension. But actually now it's the same thing. What are you going to do with that mortgage debt? Are you going to pay it on? Or do you see a transition through the mortgage sectors of sort of like you know, a residential mortgage, maybe a bill, and society interest only mortgage, maybe an equity release mortgage at the end, because you have a plan of what you're going to do and how you're going to fund your retirement?

Marie Katch - L&G:

I think for advisors it's just taking a bit of a step back and just keep it simple. There are mortgage solutions along the way for your customers and their life journey and their consequences. The question I would say to advisors is are you equipped to be able to point your customer in the right direction? And that doesn't mean to say that you have to be advised to be able to do it, but have you formed a connection with somebody that you could refer to particularly you know if you sit in one space or the other and to make sure that you're covering all sort of angles for the customer, because there is slightly nuances depending upon that customer and there are nuances in products and those nuances could be the solution for the customers that are in front of them.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Again, I agree with Marie on so much of what she says. I think you know customer needs are basically becoming more complex as they roll debt into retirement. So it used to be really clean have a mortgage, pay it off, then I'm going into retirement. That's no longer the case. It's debt into retirement and therefore planning exactly as Marie was saying has to start earlier for these customers, because the decisions you take on rolling off a two-year or five-year fix age 50, age 52, age 55, that mortgage is likely to roll to 65, 70, 75, which means it's all blurring now with what your retirement plans are, even at much younger ages.

Paul Glynn:

So quality advice from an advisor that has clarity on all the various options and how to juggle the various needs around existing mortgage, debt and retirement provision is really, really important so you're finding that, so that that must create a challenge for the two of you and your organizations as product designers, because you're both known as organizations that are forward thinking and have been innovative in the space. What kind of a challenge does that present to you to design products that suit those complex needs of what isn't now a typical demographic of 70-year-old customers? It's something way different and it starts way earlier. So what challenges do you face as a result of that in the way you design products?

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

So I think for a more to life perspective. I think it's two things. One, it's about primary research with customers to really understand what are the drivers and needs that they have. To make sure we really understand what's going to appeal to them and what their needs are, in sort of detail really, with personas and things like that, to really make sure that our business and all our staff really understand how the market is changing.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

That's one element of it, and the second element it's trying to work out, you know, in the old, simpler world where you had traditional mortgage over here and a lifetime mortgage over here. Actually, a lifetime mortgage for younger ages, as the regulator has been very clear on, is not necessarily a good outcome for a customer, particularly at younger ages, because simply stopping paying interest and making any repayments on a loan, letting it roll for what might be 25, 30 years, is extremely expensive. So some sort of hybrid solution that bridges the gap between traditional mortgage and traditional lifetime mortgage is essential. So I think but it's listening to customers, listening to advisors, of course, who are in the thick of it advising these customers to really understand those needs, but then making sure that we can really design products that fill in the gaps between you know the old mortgage product set which, quite frankly, doesn't work for more complex needs of today's customer.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Yeah, I agree with a lot Ben says I mean for me visually. Yeah, I don't agree with a lot ben says I mean for me visually. I don't know if anybody does diy here, but you know, when you've got a drill and you've got all the little drill pieces and they can just be a slight change of like 100 milliliters I don't even know what the measurements are, but you know a slight nuances in the different drill bits that you put on with the drill bit and then kind of, we're trying to see what the customer is a bit, we're trying to see what sort of solution is there. That's always visualizing my mind, because only just that little bit of difference can make such a massive amount to that customer. In a way, and I think when you're innovating products sometimes it isn't about something completely brand new, it's a tweak of what's already in existence and just making it that little bit more flexible. But it's only by learning the customer drivers and with what's out there already, why are they not being fulfilled? Why are still not being able to find solutions? It's understanding that against what the driver, the customer needs is and then making those adjustments and then from a broker's point of view, they have a realm of drill bits to be able to help with that customer.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Now, for me, I'm a very visual person, but that's how I kind of look at it. You know, in that sense, and I think when you're a lender in an organization, you're doing the best that you think is the right thing to do and you learn and you put something out there and you see where it's working and then you see where it's done and if you can, you try and make those adjustments to make sure. And I think with innovation it's all trial and error to make sure and seeing those customers through. But it's also as well trying to maybe see the future customer coming through as well, seeing what's happening down the other end of the market, to say, well, those customers are going to transition through here. You know, even even to the way we communicate with customers you would say technology now with customers.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Oh, our demographic, they're not really big on technology. You know they don't really do the sort of like podcasts and listen to them. They don't do everything digitally. If you ask them to sign into something or do I know what I do. But if you think of the customers coming through, they've been brought, they're kind of being part of everyday life, of technology. So even how we do business as a lender, we need to think about how we interact with the customers and, fundamentally, the advisors as well, who are coming through at a younger age and technology has just been part of how they do business. So there's a lot of things about understanding what's going on in sort of the market from the customer and advisor point of view, and that then feeds into that innovation.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

You can really see the principles of consumer duty in what you just said, which is that you put a product out there. You think you do all the work to make sure it's going to resonate. But the importance of monitoring how that product is performing is it delivering on what you set out as a customer need, you know, is it delivering or does it need that constant tweaking and obviously that's really important for advisors and us as lenders to make sure we're really thinking about, you know, the products we put out there. Are they meeting those needs? Do they need further evolution? You know that's all really important part of the industry moving forward.

Marie Katch - L&G:

I think yeah, and I think, fundamentally in anything that we're doing now, just in life, flexibility is key. If we, if you, haven't learned anything going to this decade of 2020 and onwards, geez, it's been all over the place, hasn't it? There's no consistency, no sort of pattern, and that's the same for a lot of customers lives now. There isn't that straight line. As you explained earlier, there's a lot of ups and downs. You know, we've got the sort of a massive increase of divorce in the over 60s, their life that they thought sort of 10 years ago of you know, leaving out my retirement with what I've got actually. No, you know, coming to the breakfast table now and my orange juice and going you know what this isn't for me, and suddenly their life is turned upside down and financially they're in a completely different position. So when you've got a joint asset, how do you share that asset? And so there's all these ups and downs, and flexibility is a massive key in anything that you do, I think.

Paul Glynn:

I really like your toolkit analogy, so I want to explore that bit a little bit further. So if you're a mortgage advisor in the current environment or you're an equity release specialist, what, given that kind of multiplicity of customer type and the more complex kind of roadmap for for someone who emerges from their first mortgage through to their last mortgage, it's becoming really complicated. So what variety of things does an advisor at either end of that mortgage versus equity release specialist spectrum, what? What do they need in their toolkit to be able to do their job properly when they arrive at a customer's house? What? What sort of things? It's not, I don't think it's just air sourcing anymore. Or you know, to use your analogy, maria, so you know you take a masonry drill bit with you, or you take, you know, a drill bit suitable for wood. You can't, you can't be that simple anymore and in the way you approach things. So what, what sort of things does an advisor now need to to start to carry around with them and plan for that? That maybe didn't need to before?

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

for me this is all about a bit of curiosity and advisor level and I think it's about being curious, um, using resources like the air academy, making sure that they really understand holistically. You know the different product types and different you know skills that they need. As an advisor, I think it's getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's not that vanilla traditional mortgage and an equity release or lifetime mortgage. As I was saying earlier, there's loads of different options now, whether it's payment term, um, whether it's, uh, you know, rios tos, any of those things, and I think new tools like the air navigator tool can be really useful as a support to an advisor. That's got that background being curious. Perhaps you know, spent some some time with a BDM, legal in general or more to life. That's got those new products to make sure they really understand the new products that are coming into market and how to apply that to the customer need. That's right in front of them.

Marie Katch - L&G:

You know, on a Tuesday morning in Scunthorpe, yeah, I think you know education is key on everything. You know that. You know if you go back to the toolkit, if you had a bit missing, you go and explore how you could fill that bit in. It's the same sort of situation and it could be organically based upon the customers that you have in front of you who come through your door. Are you at a point now where you are seeing your customers that you had years ago now going into later life?

Marie Katch - L&G:

The worlds are evolving and the two sectors are kind of coming close together and they're blurring the lines and I think it's really important as an advisor to just have an understanding of what the options are out there.

Marie Katch - L&G:

And technology does play a part in that.

Marie Katch - L&G:

So you know, we don't have one sourcing system that kind of does all products for people you know well, just customers generally, and I think that's a key part because that will really make the job a lot easier for an advisor if we had a sourcing system that did all products and, um, I think making that sort of fat find and um, that ease of conversation with the customer, it's really important to do that fat fine with them and really assess their kind of income and affordability, more um and kind of.

Marie Katch - L&G:

If you come from the equity release space, that's a little bit more sort of um, not alien, because we've been doing it for a while now, but it's probably not wasn't the part of the job that you did a lot all the time, and now it is a prerequisite in terms of assessing that affordability, because just understanding that and asking the right questions really does give you some information that then enables an advisor to make the right solution. And I said before, it's not about you, you know, having to be that person who can do the jack of everything you know and sort of like get qualified in absolutely everything, but it really is about making your business a central hub and reaching out to the ones that if you don't want to get qualified, at least you have the education of what is available to them, because as sort of life becomes a little bit more complex, those are the bits that are going to make the difference.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, so it does again take in your tool analogy a bit further then. So there's a DIY option where people can decide whether they're an equity release specialist identifying a broader mortgage need or a mortgage broker that identifies perhaps a later life lending or equity release specialist product need. They have got the option to expand their advice services and and write it themselves, but referral should be the again a default piece of kit that everybody can use wherever they operate in the market.

Marie Katch - L&G:

So and I think it's even sometimes making a little bit simpler than that. It's just a mortgage based upon the customer circumstances, doesn't matter if that mortgage sits in later life ending or whether it sits over in resi, it doesn't matter. It's a mortgage based upon the customer circumstances. It doesn't matter if that mortgage sits in later life ending or whether it sits over in resi, it doesn't matter. It's a mortgage for a customer, and so I think we just need to keep it simple and say okay, what are the solutions as that customer goes down that life track? Am I equipped to be able to offer those solutions for my customers? If I'm not, where do I get the information from and how do I link in with it? I may be just making it very simple, but for me it's simple, as in just let's not complicate it as in which, let you know, sort of arenas are sitting.

Paul Glynn:

It is just a mortgage it's important for you know, for all of our listeners this and viewers. It's important, I think, to to sometimes boil some of these things down as simply as possible and if, if a good in-depth conversation on affordability is the best diagnostic tool that an advisor operating in the market can use, then they should embrace it. They should have confidence that asking those questions will surface opportunity and then they can make a decision from there to signpost it or write it themselves.

Marie Katch - L&G:

But it starts with that conversation, as we've said in a number of different forums this year it does, and I think if you don't have that sort of confidence in that arena or you haven't come across those solutions before, well, the great thing about this industry is is that everybody wants to support everybody. So, through air academy or you know, just genuinely with the lenders, everybody wants to support everybody and they want to help you. So kind of, if it's an area that you're not familiar with or you know, I don't really know where to start, then reach out, because that's what everybody wants to do. They want to just support to make sure that we can give the best outcomes for the customers.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Yeah, great, and I think that's the you're absolutely right, marie. The industry whether that's advice, whether, whether that's advice, whether that's lenders, whether that's the solicitors involved in a later life, uh, conversation everyone wants a great customer outcome and that's been my experience, certainly, of the time I've been in the industry is everyone is anchored to that point. What is the best possible customer outcome that we can deliver for our customers? I think that's one of the real strengths of the industry I agree with that.

Paul Glynn:

Agree with that, I think, but again, again I think, just just reflecting on some of the things you've said and some of the innovations that you've both pointed to, both from a market perspective and your own individual organizations, I think what advice would you have to anybody watching or listening to this session now around the things that you've delivered in features and benefits and the things you're designing that they should be mindful of when looking at their back books of customers, irrespective of where they're currently sat in the market? What opportunities are there in there?

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

So I think from my perspective, obviously for the younger ages, clearly the payment term mortgage is providing a good solution for customers that are over 50, that cannot achieve the loan to value that. They might need a younger age because they are younger and they may not be able to afford the full affordability perhaps of a full traditional mortgage because there's not enough years between the age they are now to their retirement and when they want to retire. And I think the payment term provides a good option for those customers where, as I say, they need to hire LTV. They can't afford the full repayment and getting that LTV on a traditional mortgage. Therefore, a part and part solution, where they pay off some of it and then roll into and convert to a lifetime mortgage, is a good option.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

But there are other solutions out there that if you don't want to take the risk of your property being at risk, you know the interest reward type solution where again, you can make payments it's sort of contractual um but you get a discount on your interest rate to do so would potentially be another solution for for customers. So I think, again, lots of options out there. It's all about the curiosity and understanding to make sure you know what's the right one for the customer in front of you yeah, and I think on top of that, I think it's about knowing your customers and that in-depth relationship.

Marie Katch - L&G:

There's a lot of discussions, you know, maybe sort of mortgage interactions are quite transactional. So it's, you know, you might see them every so often and that type of thing. Well, and that may be true. But keeping in contact with your customers and kind of seeing them go through their life journey, it means that you're more equipped to help them. You can see what they're facing, facing the challenges that they're facing, and I think it needs to be more transformative as a relationship so that you can help them, but not only them but also their family members in that sense as well. And then by understanding the nuances about the customer and you know their little bit of affordability and what they've got coming in and kind of what does their pension look like and retirement, it then helps you then to match them to that right drill bit you know, to put them to sort of factor that in for them, because you're aware of what those little nuances in the customer will fit with the different products that are out there.

Marie Katch - L&G:

And I think by we all know that now interest serving is such a massive sort of step forward, particularly where sort of rates have hit in the lifetime market. But interest-owning is a common thing, that's throughout the mortgage industry. So it's just how much can they afford? Understanding their affordability. You know what is the flexibility if they come to a point where actually I can't do that anymore, what are their options?

Marie Katch - L&G:

And then looking at the product in a sense that yes, you're committed for that point, that feels really comfortable and you know what, I can still make more overpayments if I want to, or actually no, I now just want that sort of like debt to roll off because I'm uncomfortable at that point and it is. It is sort of looking at that customer in a little bit more longer term, particularly when they get into sort of like the realms of retirement and things like that. But it's really understanding that it's, you know, getting the education and support to try and not make it look so scary and because I know there's a lot to ask of an advisor with all these nuances. But it's to get educated because it's just going to make it easier for them to serve their customers yeah, yeah, I just feel as though there's a huge customer opportunity and customer engagement opportunity in this.

Paul Glynn:

But, as you've just outlined there, Marie, I think the education bit and getting educated to a level is the first step in opening up that opportunity. But doing that should enable firms to build really good B2B relationships where back to your tradesperson analogy no one's necessarily an expert in all aspects of that. They've got collectives of people and relationships with other businesses that they work together on things. So, you know, is there anything that Aira or others could do more of to help build better B2B bridges in the market?

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Well, I definitely think AIR is in a fantastic position because you've got an advisor population that's come from mainstream and you've got an advisor population that's in later life, and to me you should absolutely be a key facilitator for, as exactly as Marie was saying earlier, be clear on what you want to advise on but equally be aware of what you don't want to advise on, and I think you potentially can pay a really unique bridge between those two specialist roles, with each knowing where the other side, if, if you like, will provide a better outcome to the customer that sat in front of you.

Paul Glynn:

Um, you're in a unique position to facilitate those conversations could be an area that we explore in more depth than one of these in future, then I think yeah, and obviously the modules that you do really helps to sort of like um, enforce affordability and assessment and things like that.

Marie Katch - L&G:

And the academy is really good. Now I only see that academy evolving based on the more needs you go through. So you know, even to the point of like we, we did obviously the research on divorce and the highest rate of divorce is in the over 60s, but the majority don't get financial advice until it's too late. And it's actually linking in with divorce lawyers to be part of that conversation and and funnily enough, divorce lawyers are wanting that as well, because to have the conversation at a financial part of what happens, it's so important to have it at the beginning, rather at the end when it's too late. So it's even things like that and you know it's not just about sort of what's in the industry. It's kind of like coming up when you have customers that go through. Then if you're close to your customer, they're going to come to you because they've got that relationship with you and you're going to be able to support them through the ups and downs of life thanks, marie.

Paul Glynn:

So I think, assuming that, um that the the conversations that we've started today carry on in the in the market, the products and the designs that you're working really hard on bed in, what do you both see? If we're sat here in two years' time and episode 20 of this series or whatever we get to what would you like to see in the market at that point in time? That's based on the work you're doing now. What do you want it to look like in future?

Marie Katch - L&G:

I think from my point of view it's it's sort of bringing the two markets together in a way. Um. So, as I said, just keeping it simple and going back to that we're providing mortgage solutions and we're understanding our customers, rather than having the big divide between it's over there or it's over here. I think for me it's kind of bridging that gap and just looking at the simplification of there are options out there that lenders are providing based upon some research, kind of do they work for your customer and are you aware of them? I think it's allowing and supporting advisors to have access to those solutions. But if I was looking at a macro level, I'd even start looking at the qualification framework, and I may get berated for saying that, but I think there is something that we could do with the qualification framework to bring later life as in what happens at that end of the spectrum quite early on, into a professional qualification for advisors coming through, because we want to bring it as a normalcy rather than there is something extra and different. And you know, if you think about the strategy of a firm, if you want to, you know longevity in your firm, you want to see it continue.

Marie Katch - L&G:

I think it's important that we look at those sort of frameworks and sort of see what we can do to refine that and bring that in quite early.

Marie Katch - L&G:

Um, and then it's not a conversation that happens when the people are well, the customers are in the age demographic of over 50s and now is looking at that, it's always having an eye on that in the end, when you haven't even getting onto your first time buyer um mortgage and having that view there.

Marie Katch - L&G:

And then because we know it comes full circle and the fact that you know the bank of mum and dad does exist and will exist and continue to exist for the bank of family, now we call it, where equity will be drawn from that end of the market for our older demographics and they're going to utilize that to help their grandchildren onto the property, like that. I mean, depending what the government come up with, if there's going to be a replacement for help to buy and different ideas that are coming through, it's probably going to be even more important. So it's really just trying to look at the, the end spectrum as a bit of a normalcy in terms of advice and apprehension, rather than, oh, it's way over there and, I think, having a sourcing system, some technology that supports, that makes it familiar as an everyday role for advisors.

Paul Glynn:

I agree with that, marie, and we do address some of those technology points in other episodes. For that reason, this can be an important part. Ben your thoughts on that.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Yeah, well, my list was very similar. I think Marie must have been reading my list. I was scribbling it down there to be honest with you. But but yeah, I agree.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Uh, I think advisors need to come together to provide a more holistic view for a customer's needs as they go through, particularly from 50 years, uh onwards.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

Um, I think as product providers, we need to have better, um, better product options that meet more customer needs, as those customer needs, as we talked about, are changing with flexibility, because I think, again, marie made a great point about people that are getting divorced and suddenly their needs completely change almost overnight.

Ben Waugh - More2Life:

And you know, the products that we offer need to be more flexible than they are to cater for those sorts of situations which, while not every day for most customers, when they do happen to some customers, it's life-changing and we need to be able to adapt and pivot to help customers through those situations. And then technology to simplify this, to make it easier for advisors to focus on the customers and the customer needs in front of them without worrying too much about. Can I remember all of the features, the fine print, if you like, from every product type and technology, whether that's comparing, you know different types of mortgage in an intuitive, easy to understand way, for example. I think it's got to be the way forward but that advisor continuum, better product options to fill in the gaps and technology to help everyone simplify the journey for customers, at the end of the day, that are there from AIR to really understand the opportunities that sit in the great work that the two of you have been doing in the market.

Paul Glynn:

So thank you for that. I think my key takeaways from this session have been you know, we shouldn't pigeonhole customers. Certainly at the start of this session it was really clear you can't just say now someone is a later life lending client or an equity release client because they're 70, they've got unencumbered properties and they're asset rich and cash poor. The market has moved way beyond that and the work that your organizations have done certainly have taken the product sets light years beyond that as well. Thank you both for your insights and input today and we look forward to speaking to you on on other versions of this in the future. Thank you, thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps others discover the show. Don't forget to subscribe so that you never miss an episode and follow us on social media for exclusive content. We'll be back next week with another great, comprehensive conversation.