Master Later Life Lending - By Air

Is Carrying Mortgage Debt into Retirement the New Normal?

September 19, 2024 • Paul Glynn • Season 1 • Episode 4

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Ever wondered why carrying mortgage debt into retirement might be the smartest move you can make? Join us on the Master Later Life Lending podcast as we sit down with financial experts David Hamilton from L&G, Nathan Waller from Family Building Society, and Will Hale from Key Group. Together, we unpack the changing attitudes towards debt and inheritance among those over 50, revealing how equity release and other financial products are becoming essential tools for modern retirees. Discover the importance of advisor-client conversations in navigating these financial waters, ensuring you make informed decisions that benefit both you and your family.

Explore the innovative retirement mortgage solutions that are reshaping the landscape, including the newly launched payment term lifetime mortgage. This breakthrough product offers higher loan-to-value ratios in exchange for monthly interest payments, providing much-needed flexibility amidst rising living costs. We share real-world examples of how these mortgages can drastically reduce outgoings and transform equity release from a last-resort option into a cornerstone of financial planning. Understand why assessing customer affordability at any age is crucial and how these innovations can serve diverse needs, from debt management to funding property purchases.

Rising interest rates and intergenerational mortgage solutions are also on our radar. Nathan Waller highlights how older generations are leveraging their incomes to help younger family members secure better housing options and improve long-term financial stability. We discuss the significance of open communication and continuous advisor education in navigating these complex scenarios. David and Paul emphasize the role of business development managers and the need to adapt advice strategies to meet evolving customer profiles. Tune in to learn how breaking down market silos and embracing a holistic approach to financial advice can bridge the gap between customer needs and innovative product designs.

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Paul Glynn:

Hello and welcome to the Master Later Life Lending podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of later life lending, equity release and the evolving needs of borrowers over the age of 50. I'm your host, paul Glynn, and I'm excited to have you with us today. In this episode we're discussing strategies and solutions for managing mortgage debt into retirement, an increasingly important issue as more people carry debt later in life. Joining us today are David Hamilton from L&G, nathan Waller from Family Building Society and Will Hale, group Director Responsible for Distribution at Key Group. Legal General is a major financial services company offering a range of products to help manage retirement finances. A family building society offers innovative financial solutions that are tailored to the needs of families and older clients. Will, david and Nathan bring a wealth of experience and practical strategies that can help advisors support their clients in managing debt into retirement.

Paul Glynn:

Let's get started and welcome our guests, will Hale, david Hamilton and Nathan Waller. Will David, nathan, welcome. We've talked in the series so far in the other episodes about the need for comprehensive conversations and the way that they support better customer outcomes. There was a session on products designed to address emerging needs that we're seeing in the market and a further session on technology and how that can support advisors tackle an ever more complicated market. So in this session we want to deep dive the theme which has come through, that more customers are carrying debt into retirement. So really interested in your thoughts on that topic, so let's get straight into the question. So, nathan, coming to you first, what are the challenges of carrying mortgage debt into retirement and, in particular, people's attitude to things like debt and inheritance?

David Hamilton:

So what we are finding I mean you only need to look at the statistics of that there's due to be over 26 million over 55s by 2039. 26 million over 55s by 2039. So more people's attitudes towards maintaining and keeping that debt into retirement is becoming a bit more relaxed. Sometimes it's a necessity to keep that debt there. Sometimes it's actually looking at them benefiting the rest of their family where they are passing equity down so that their kids and grandkids can maybe have a nicer home, a nicer property. But people are now more financially savvy where actually they can afford this debt into retirement, where they might have good pensions, they might have good investments, they might also have buy-to-lets in the background, might also have buy-to-lets in the background and maintaining that debt is more just part of the course and they're happy to continue to manage that debt as well.

Paul Glynn:

That's something that you recognise as well, david. Yeah absolutely.

Nathan Waller:

I mean, when you look at the products that are available in this space, you know equity release has played a pivotal role in supporting those either approaching retirement or already in retirement in managing that debt.

Paul Glynn:

There's definitely things I think we can touch on later as we move through the podcast and some of the things you've said there, david, but well, that must create a challenge for building a strategy in an advice business where things are shifting that much.

Will Hale:

Absolutely, paul. I think, sort of building on what Nathan said, I think they're, given the changing needs and profiles of customers in the later life space, it does put a great emphasis on having more comprehensive conversations as you go through the advice process. I think what we're seeing in our internal advice business is really two very distinct cohorts of customers. So, as David said, you've got the sort of traditional equity release customers who are perhaps sort of well into their 70s. They've paid down their existing mortgage debt probably by the time they've retired and then they're looking for equity release, sort of partially through their retirement, in order to boost their retirement income or to gift to family members or just to enjoy life a little bit more by going on that holiday of a lifetime or improving their home, whether that be a conservatory or a new kitchen or things like that. And that profile of customer still exists and it's still a really important part of the market.

Will Hale:

But I think the challenge for both specialist later life lending advisors but more personally maybe for mainstream mortgage advisors, is this new cohort of customers that are coming into the market who are in their early to mid 50s.

Will Hale:

They've still got a substantial amount of mortgage debt that they're carrying and there's really no chance that they're going to clear down that mortgage debt before they retire.

Will Hale:

So there's an inevitability about them needing to carry that mortgage debt through retirement and that's where advisors have a crucial role to play in helping them manage that mortgage debt through retirement. And that's where advisors have a crucial role to play in helping them manage that mortgage debt and navigate perhaps through a different range of product solutions over the next 15, 20, 30 years. And that may be starting with traditional mainstream mortgage products that are designed for older customers. It may mean then moving into Rio products and ultimately maybe moving into lifetime mortgage products that allow them to serve some or all of the interest before moving into a full roll-up situation, maybe at the latter stages of their life. So that's a much more complex journey for an advisor to manage than was ever the case previously and and that's why I think advisors need that help, education, support that the likes of air provide, but also where technology needs to improve in terms of sourcing solutions and tools to to help them get to the right product outcome for each different customer's needs and circumstances.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, Will. Sorry, Nathan, you were going to come in then.

David Hamilton:

Yeah, and I think what you're saying there as well is the customer base is changing significantly. But also it's important for all the advisors out there to really take on board all of the information that is available to them, open up the lines of conversations with the different types of providers whether it be standard mainstream lenders as well as the equity release style products and just have that conversation with those lenders and the support structures that are in place for them to understand the next steps as well, so that they can provide that holistic advice to their customers. And I think that is also a very, very key part in what advisors and the role they play really need to get on board with that and say don't worry about asking the question, educate themselves so that they can have that discussion, so they can ask the right questions to their customers to do a more holistic long-term strategy for them yeah, we heard, we heard from some of our guests in previous episodes about, you know, broader thought leadership in the space and and some of the emerging product types.

Paul Glynn:

So, david, just just building on that conversation from will and and and from from nathan, I think. Uh, we heard mar. We heard Marie Catch in one of those episodes talk about the thought leadership from legal in general in tackling the emerging trend for customers with debt in retirement. So can you tell us about the role of equity release and others in terms of product development and a product level for managing debt and, in particular, the PTLTM product?

Nathan Waller:

So I think we've already talked about, you know, equity release has always played a very, you know, pivotal role in helping those, I suppose, either in retirement or, as Will said, approaching retirement, to manage sort of like debt. I think last year one in four customers took a lifetime mortgage to repay an existing mortgage and I think one in three took a lifetime mortgage to repay some form of unsecured debt. And I think, when you look at reports from the FCA, where you have almost a million outstanding interest only or part and part mortgage, one of four of those maturing in the next five years and almost 60% in the next 10 years, it's important that we continue to innovate in this space so that we can support those you know sorts of customers, and we have recently launched our payment term lifetime mortgage sorts of customers. And we have recently launched our payment term lifetime mortgage. It's a product where customers can have access to higher LTVs because we're seeing, you know, since LTVs have compressed in the market, we need to find alternative solutions to be able to bring those back. And this product allows customers access to those LTVs in exchange for committing to making monthly interest payments. So with that product, the customer will decide with their advisor how long they want to pay for up until the age of 75, dependent upon the income type. That's being taken. Sorry that's being used in the affordability assessment. That's been taken. Sorry that's been used in the affordability assessment. And one of the great things about this product is because they don't have to make their payments for the duration of the loan. It's easier for joint borrowers to pass an affordability assessment because we don't do that first stress that we do on the Rio product. We don't do that first death stress that we do on the Rio product.

Nathan Waller:

And we've seen the product used in a number of different ways. So we've talked about interest-only mortgages, debt consolidation. We've seen it used for purchases. So when you spoke about some borrowers are looking to improve their lifestyle. We've seen customers who have taken the product, which has enabled them to move into a product that gives them sort of longevity. And another example that we've got of where this product has really driven a positive outcome for customers we we saw a gentleman who had a existing mortgage, a loan and a credit card. His outgoings were over £1,000 and we've managed over half those and that's really important when you consider the rising cost of living at the minute, so we've definitely been able to make that customer more comfortable as they transition into retirement.

Paul Glynn:

And those are good examples of things we'd hoped would surface from what we, in error, term in comprehensive conversations they're all affordability-led. If you put affordability at the heart of the process, then opportunities to support customers in that type of scenario surface and drive great outcomes or better outcomes. Nathan is that is that kind of product innovation mirrored in in the more mainstream side of the product landscape?

David Hamilton:

I mean on the on the mainstream side of things, especially where we operate within the building society market. What we are looking at is exactly what you just mentioned there, where it's based on the affordability and is this affordable? And um, can they continue to to maintain this loan? And if they can, then why? Why not? Why not look at it?

David Hamilton:

Um, if you are looking at customers who are struggling currently, or their outgoings have gone up that little bit more, and actually the right advice for them is potentially to look at these types of products, consolidate debts or change the loan, maybe from a repayment to an interest, only for the meantime, because in five years' time their plan is to do this Within the Bill Society market as well.

David Hamilton:

We are always open to the conversations and understanding the customer's needs. So, in regards to product side of things, we can look at interest only later on in life, up to high LTVs, with a credible strategy in place, rather than just going to the agile side of things where you're looking at 70, 75, maybe 80. In that case, now we're going to walk away from it, we're not interested in that case anymore. But why not take an overview of their whole circumstances as a client, as an individual, and then we can decide whether that product is suitable for them. And I think that's really where, although it may not be a product, specific innovation, it's going back to good old fashioned lending of. Is this the right outcome for the customer? Does this make sense, right?

Paul Glynn:

In that case, let's find a way to help them and serve their needs resonate with you from a specialist perspective where you've got examples of being able to help customers successfully in terms of debt management in later life.

Will Hale:

Absolutely. I think what both of the guys have sort of evidenced is that there are so many options out there for later life customers these days, whether it be in the equity release space or indeed in the sort of mainstream space. I think the phrase that still really annoys me more than anything is when I hear industry professionals talk about equity release being a product of last resort, and I think, given the innovation we've seen in the lifetime mortgage space, that is absolutely not the case. So we shouldn't look across and see equity release naturally being a product that involves full roll-up of interest. As David outlines, we've seen innovations now over the last couple of years, whether it's for mandatory repayments or optional repayments, that allow customers to service some or all of the interest, either for some of the duration of their loan or indeed for the full duration of the loan, and that allows a customer to more actively manage their debt and makes the product suitable for a whole range of different circumstances, and we've seen customers right across the sort of wealth spectrum use the products very effectively to achieve their needs.

Will Hale:

So it could be a customer, as we say, looking at IHT mitigation strategies and how taking money out of their property today can help reduce the tax bill for their beneficiaries sort of further down the line. It might be someone using an equity release mortgage to settle a divorce, for example, which we're seeing more and more with sort of silver splitters. It could be someone taking out equity release to help fund the purchase of a lease on a freehold in order to earn the freehold of a property. So there's a whole range of different ways that these products can be used and I think not just specialist advisors but mainstream mortgage advisors have to start thinking differently about this space and how these products can be used to support a whole range of different needs and circumstances so we'll mention there the, the, the phrase product of last resort.

Paul Glynn:

So um, have either of you got examples of where you've come across cases and circumstances where that's not the case?

Nathan Waller:

yeah, I mean I think in an increasing interest rate environment we're definitely seeing a shift towards needs-based borrowing. You know, I participated in some research recently where one of our customers had used the money that he had advanced to purchase a yacht. It had always been his dream to purchase a yacht and his partner, you know, was happy to fund that yacht through a lifetime mortgage, as long as the interest was being serviced, which they could afford to do, and and they've been able to achieve sort of like a lifelong dream kind of does break the kind of conception misconception, then, or preconception rather that um equity releases for those that are asset rich and cash poor.

Paul Glynn:

But, nathan, have you got any examples?

David Hamilton:

Yeah, and also from a more standard later life lending scenario, is taking it back from the later life side of things.

David Hamilton:

There's a lot of press at the moment of the overall affordability stress and strain for the younger borrowers and actually what we are seeing is an increase in an uptake of joint borrower sole proprietor as an example where to assist with the younger borrowers' affordability struggles.

David Hamilton:

The older customers are willing to jump onto the mortgage, utilize their um, utilize their incomes to support that borrowing where actually, as an aspirational family unit, they can really see the benefits of not just the younger person's income but the older person's income as well. And it's not just thinking of that in the older borrower as an individual, it's actually looking at the, the combined family unit. So we are seeing parents coming on and going up to potentially the age of 95 to help them get, instead of a one-bed flat, a two-bed house longer term as well. It also saves them money financially because they then don't have to sell that property in two or three years time when they have the little baby and actually want to go from a one-bed flat to a two-bed house and then have to put money into estate agency fees, stamp duty costs and all those things and actually they get to move into that larger property straight away as more of an aspirational style product.

Paul Glynn:

So it's not just, I would say, the potential of product last resort, it's actually a potential product that can help people at the very beginning of their life, not just at the end and those two sort of case studies really excite me, not not because one of them had a yacht in it, but definitely because they're a chance to collaborate with other practitioners, definitely in that kind of yacht, complex needs, complex position scenario. But yours, nathan, where it's intergenerational objectives, so you really build in embedded value in your business by being open-minded to how you can support multiple generations of customers. So it fascinates me that.

David Hamilton:

But again, they come from great conversation especially as your needs to see of the increase of the bank of mum and dad and bank of mum and granddad, and that's in the. You see that in the press a lot and the deposits are sometimes coming from them and actually does that deposit need to come from them or could it just come from them topping up the income instead and actually keeping the money they were going to provide as an additional deposit in their own bank account and actually makes it more comfortable for them as well? So there's a lot of conversations that can be had around that type of scenario.

Will Hale:

Yeah, and just to add, I think from an advice perspective, I think one of the sort of challenges we're hearing back from advisors at the moment is a nervousness around customers wanting to proceed in the current rate environment.

Will Hale:

And it's right that customers are circumspect about that and it's right that advisors are sort of making sure they're making measured recommendations about when or when it's not right to proceed.

Will Hale:

But I think sometimes we forget that these later life lending solutions can be very sort of lifestyle enhancing and aspirational and actually the rate is for those customers is maybe a secondary consideration.

Will Hale:

I mean, why should these customers put their life on hold around those sort of ambitions they have, whether it be buying a yacht or helping one of their family members onto the house housing ladder or to make that next step up on the housing ladder? Those are sort of lifestyle sort of ambitions which you can proceed with in the current race environment and the new products allow customers to manage that debt in a cost effective way. So I think advisors and customers should have that confidence about being able to move forward and to live their lives and dreams in the way that they want. And that's what these products can do. And you know, in our, our advice business we've got so many stories sort of like that around how these products are really changing people's lives for the better, and not just their lives but family members lives as well. So you know it is, it can be a really sort of aspirational and life-fulfilling decision that these people are making, which which sometimes I don't think is recognized by by lots of people in the industry.

Paul Glynn:

so really good to hear those examples certainly the value of advice in that context. You know there's been some great case study style examples from from all of you there in, in terms of where you know products and solutions can support what seems to be a ever-increasing emerging theme of, as we said, people carrying debt into retirement. I think it would be interesting to just explore a little bit with the three of you what your organizations are doing to help advisors understand this a bit more, understand what they need to do in their businesses. So, nathan, can I come to you first in terms of what support is available from your organisation?

David Hamilton:

Yes, certainly. I mean. We have a wide range of BDMs across the country and they're always, always happy to take the call from the advisors to go through as much as they possibly want in regards to how they can structure these types of cases with us. We have recently launched our education hub on the website as well, which we'll be continually updating and adding more information onto there.

David Hamilton:

Podcasts such as this to make sure that people are at least aware that these types of products and types of solutions are available and we're always happy to have a conversation. I think that's the most important thing. Give us a call, go through it. The support is there. If you don't understand what we've got in front of you from an advisory perspective, send it over to us I look through when we're looking at cases we can look at, as an example, investments, pensions, sips, sassies, drawdown facilities, which sometimes people don't know what they're looking at. So you can provide that to us upfront, have an open conversation with us and say, well, what does this mean, what can I do with this? And we will come back, say this is how we look at that, this is what we would do and this mean. What can I do with this?

David Hamilton:

And we will come back and say this is how we look at that. This is what we would do. And this is how you can structure that case. It's all about education and it's all about just support overall.

Paul Glynn:

And that's our main takeaway from that is we always have to have a conversation.

Nathan Waller:

Is that the same for you, david? Yeah, you know, it's a similar, similar story. We've got a lot of information available about um on our advisor center. Um, you know, particularly from an innovation perspective, we're learning who's taking these types of products and how they're being used, just as much as the advisor is, and as that evolves over time, we're creating new case studies and uploading those. But it what I would encourage, encourage is if you do have a customer or if you don't understand something about the product, reach out to your BDM. That's what they're there for and we've got some exceptional BDMs at Home Finance and even if, for example, it's just talking through the affordability of a case because we've talked about how important that is they're there to help you. And if you can't get through to the bdm, call up our normal number and we've got a concierge team that will also help with with those particular affordability questions and so similar, similar ilk.

Paul Glynn:

But yeah, that's what they're for and we'll just just coming to you if, if, thinking more more about the business principle than necessarily the advisor looking for help on a case, if we're starting to see an emerging trend of needing to consider a broader set of circumstances, not necessarily jump to conclusions on customer profiles, there's this whole raft of emerging more complex customers in the middle. What impact has that got for a business principal who's listening to this, thinking about what changes they need to make to their advice philosophy and their ongoing business strategy?

Will Hale:

because it's going to be quite an important shift I I think it's huge paul, and you know when I'm out there talking to business principals or indeed the sort of heads of the large networks. I think there's two angles for me, one of which is sort of looking through the consumer duty lens and sort of highlighting that, no matter whether you're a specialist later life lending advisor or a mainstream mortgage advisor, you can't ignore the fact that there are lots of different options available for customers in this market, irrespective of the scope of advice you offer. Consumer duty requires you to have a wider field of vision and to consider products or solutions that might be more appropriate for the customer than those that you offer. So I think it's important that in advice processes and philosophies that that is taken into account and advisors of businesses have that choice as to whether they expand the scope of their advice to include those propositions or they have trusted referral mechanisms where they by those customers can be passed to another advisor who can talk about those solutions with the customer. So it's an area that, from a consumer duty and a regulation perspective, business principals just can't afford to ignore. However, you know, that sounds like quite a sort of negative sort of take on it. I think the flip side to that conversation is also, as a business principle, this is an area of the market you can't afford to ignore for commercial reasons.

Will Hale:

Significant, and that comes for me in sort of two ways.

Will Hale:

Firstly, mainstream mortgage advisors are sitting on a database of customers who traditionally maybe they've stopped servicing those customers when they've reached the age of 55 or 60.

Will Hale:

And actually there's a great opportunity to show the value of advice for those customers all the way through their life cycle and indeed not to just help them with their needs but also then engage with them and talk to them about what their children or grandchildren might need in terms of mortgage advice as well.

Will Hale:

And it's a really sort of efficient way of bringing new business into your practice if you're sweating your existing database rather than having to rely on acquiring new customers day after day, week after week. And again, if you look at the opportunity in terms of revenue, a lot of customers maybe at the moment when they're remortgaging, over the age of 50 are going into product transfers which, as we all know, sort of have very poor levels of proc fees attached to them. Well, it's a sort of win-win for all sides if, for some of those customers, these later life lending options can be considered, and not only is it delivering a better outcome for a lot of those customers, but it's also coming with an enhanced revenue attached to it for those firms and business principles as well. So again, whether it's from a regulatory perspective or whether it's from a commercial perspective, you know my message to people that are running mortgage businesses is that you just can't afford to ignore this space.

Paul Glynn:

That's good advice. I think that will. I think you know, having listened to the comments from all of you, there's a definite recurring theme that there's plenty of opportunity out there for firms to engage with customers, plenty of opportunity for firms to engage in this kind of middle part of the market that's emerging, that definitely is carrying debt into retirement. But the only way you really surface those opportunities is through the comprehensive conversations taking place around what people have got in terms of in-depth income and expenditure conversations and what they can truly afford. And then only when you know that can some of the great designs and work that your organizations have been putting into play really come into effect, have been putting into play, really come into effect. So just to kind of put you all on the spot a little bit, what would you like to see, both in terms of advisor best practice or firm best practice and then product design from lenders over the next couple of years? Put you on the spot, nathan.

David Hamilton:

First, that's a tricky one, isn't it? I mean, in regards to the advice process, I think, as we mentioned earlier, it does come back to that self-education and that understanding and not being shy to ask the questions and conversations when there are multiple times where I might get a phone call from an advisor asking about our later life lending products and policies, um, and sometimes the simple question I'll have back okay, so what pension contribution? What? What pensions do they have in the background and they say, oh, I haven't asked that question. Um, so initially it'll be those types of scenarios and not being shy to ask those questions up front, so that you can get a full understanding of that market as well.

David Hamilton:

So just a bit of a shift, change in attitude, I think is probably a good thing to have. I mean it would be nice to see. I mean, we've recently increased proc fees for product transfers so they get the same amount as if it was a brand new case. So it'd be nice to see that kind of changing. Although it's not product innovation, it will at least help those conversations where that customer may be looking at a later life style product and will need to continue that debt in the future. So actually it benefits everybody long term for things such as that. Actually, it benefits everybody long term for things such as that. In regards to product innovation, I think it'd just be nice to see everyone being able to not just look at the black and white of this is what we do, this is the income we'll take up until then, and being able to open up their criterias and their understanding of that type of market as well.

David Hamilton:

Whether it be more versions of your products in a hybrid side of things, because that product makes sense, why wouldn't more lenders necessarily want to consider something similar to that?

David Hamilton:

So, again, I think it's everyone getting out of what we have done over the over the last 10, 15, 20 years as an example, and then just looking at moving forward what needs to our customers, what needs are they going to serve? Moving forward and actually being proactive about it and saying right, this is what we can look to do. Moving forward and just looking out of the constraints of what the norm is considered, because there's no such thing as a normal case anymore. Every case is now got more complexity to, it, has got more needs for that customer and it's being flexible and fluid and driving the business forward to support not just the, the, the company that they work, the bank or the building society that they work for, but also the building society, uh, that they work for, but also the needs for the ever-changing customer, and I think that's key is, like I say, putting the customer at the center of way of what you want to do as a business is probably the most important thing yeah, I agree with that.

Paul Glynn:

Some and some interesting thoughts there, particularly, I'm sure the the proc fee uh change will be welcomed by firms. Um, but at air we'd wholeheartedly agree with that. Treat every customer individually, because we've been running a series of um sessions on personalization of advice. Because, again, if you can do the best job you can for for customers, then asking all the right questions, putting all the right inputs into our sourcing platform, for example, whether that's what the customer wants to pay and for how long in terms of serving the interest, or whether it's a full disclosure and input on all of their health information to make sure you've personalized their product from that perspective all really important stuff. So we'd echo those kind of sentiments, nathan David, anything that you'd like to see in the next two years.

Nathan Waller:

I think you know we've talked about quality conversations. I think that's really important. I would say don't discount any products. You know there is a wealth of different types of products out there. It might be that some meet customers' needs and some just don't. Don't discount them and you have to have those quality conversations and you have to have that education, that product knowledge, to be able to advise the best possible one for your client. From an innovation perspective, I think you know we can't bring new products out every month. You know a lot of work and effort goes into them. But we shouldn't rest on our laurels once we have sort of bought a new product out. We need to listen to the feedback that we're getting from advisors. We need to listen to where it's worked for a customer and where it hasn't quite worked for a customer, and continue to evolve in a safe and responsible way. But with that really laser sharp focus on how can we support more customers and drive some really good customer outcomes yeah, thanks for that.

Paul Glynn:

And I think the don't discount products resonates with with me, because if we are going to support customers keeping their options open for as long as possible, yeah, then it is those affordability led conversations that keep as many product options on tape on the table for as long as possible than it is those affordability led conversations that keep as many product options on the table for as long as possible during the advice process.

Nathan Waller:

Absolutely.

Paul Glynn:

Agree with that Will some final thoughts from you in terms of what you'd like to see in the next two years.

Will Hale:

Just building on what the guys have already said, I think for me in the advice space, what I'd like to see is a breakdown of the silos that exist between the two markets.

Will Hale:

So, whilst we'll always have specialist later life lending advisors, we need to have those advisors be more aware of the options that are available in mainstream, consider those within their advice process or refer if they don't cover those within their own scope of advice. And the flip side is we need the same from the mainstream mortgage advisors. They need to have a good enough understanding of the options available in the lifetime mortgage space so, again, they can refer customers where appropriate to a specialist advisor. So those silos need to be broken down. I think where the sort of support services market can help that process and I'm looking at Air in particular, clearly is around how sort of sourcing solutions can come together, so how mainstream sourcing and later life sourcing can merge to help advisors have a more holistic view sort of across the piece. So I think there's a technology development requirement there to really help support that sort of more holistic advice process.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, will, and thank you to all of you for your thoughts. I think, just reflecting on our conversation in terms of a bit of a recap, my takeaways are that there is definitely a movement of new customer where attitudes to carrying debt into retirement are changing. I think, nathan, you talked about pension income and other more stable forms of retirement income, definitely giving people that option. We've heard in some of our other sessions around the use of new product types and, david, you've given us some great case study examples there of real-life examples where customers have been helped, but it does mean solutions and debt being carried into retirement, so affordability-led conversations are crucial to surface those types of customers.

Paul Glynn:

And then, will, you talked about the need to think through the implications on the advice philosophy. So there's good food for thought there for business principals that are listening or watching this podcast as we've moved through it, but it sounds like it's a fantastic area to explore further in later issues. Brilliant opportunity for businesses and a brilliant opportunity to really really do what advisors do best, which is help serve the needs of customers who are desperately in need of some financial advice and support, and being the bridge to some great product design that you've outlined, david, and that you've outlined as well, nathan. So thank you for your time today and we'll speak to you soon.

David Hamilton:

Thank you.

Paul Glynn:

Thank you. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps others discover the show. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and follow us on social media for exclusive content. We'll be back next week with another great, comprehensive conversation.