Master Later Life Lending - By Air

How Can Advisors Navigate Political Shifts in the Mortgage Market?

• Paul Glynn • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Discover the essential skills you need to navigate the changing mortgage landscape in our latest Master Later Life Lending podcast episode. We promise you'll walk away with actionable insights on the current trends, challenges, and opportunities from experts Callum Wilkinson of Rosemount and Will Hale of Key Group. From the impact of seasonal drops and major events like elections to the crucial need for remortgage advice, our guests share invaluable knowledge that can help you stay ahead in the market.

Join us as we explore the potential impacts of political shifts on the housing market, including mortgage rates, housing initiatives, and policies designed to benefit first-time buyers. Callum and Will share their strategies on how advisors can effectively engage clients about later life lending solutions, equity release, and potential taxation changes. We also debunk common misconceptions that young people have about entering the property market and highlight realistic pathways to home ownership.

Finally, we focus on how technology can revolutionise the mortgage advisory process, particularly for clients over 50. Learn about the latest tools and industry needs for standardised tech solutions that streamline operations and improve client outcomes. With a commitment to staying adaptable and diversified, this episode emphasises the importance of maintaining strong client relationships in a fluctuating market. Don’t miss these expert insights that could transform your approach to mortgage advising.

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Paul Glynn:

Hello and welcome to the Master Later Life Lending podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of later life lending, equity release and the evolving needs of borrowers over the age of 50. I'm your host, paul Glynn, and I'm excited to have you with us today. In this final episode of Series 1, we're examining the current mortgage market. We're highlighting trends, challenges and opportunities. We'll discuss how to help more first-time buyers, the increase in product transfer volumes, as well as extending mortgage terms and managing debt into retirement. Joining us today are Callum Wilkinson from Rosemount, an independent, family-owned financial services network offering comprehensive support to mortgage protection and financial advisors, and Will Hale, who's responsible for all distribution products at Key Group, which includes the specialist later life Division and airs academy club and sourcing services. Callum and Will bring unique insights and practical strategies that can help advisors navigate the current market landscape effectively.

Paul Glynn:

Let's get started and welcome our guests, callum Wilkinson and Will Hale. So, callum, will, let's get into the discussion then. So we've seen in the series of podcasts so far a discussion about the need for comprehensive conversations, how affordability can support better customer outcomes. We have had a discussion with some of our experts around the products that are being designed to address some of the emerging needs from customers, and how technology can support advisors in what's becoming an ever more complicated market, and we've done a bit of a deep dive into the fact that there's more customers carrying debt into retirement. So in this session we really want to wrap up with a topical summary from a firm and an advisor perspective, looking at the current trends and the impact on commercial decision making in different practices. So I think, as guests, you'll be an ideal couple of people to give us that perspective, given your background. So let's get started with question one and Callum for you first. From a network perspective, what current trends are you observing in the mortgage market?

Callum Wilkinson:

Yeah, I think, specifically in the mortgage market, we've seen activity drop slightly as we've come into summer. I think that's generally the trend that we see anyway, given people start to go away. But I think, especially this year, we've had the election and we've had the Euros, the football as well, and I think all of that has just led to a slight drop in activity, especially compared to the start of the year, which was really busy and productive. But I think the message still from our advisors is that there are people out there looking to buy. There's still people that need remortgage advice and are reviewing their current rates, I think as well looking at specifically product types that we're looking at and looking at sort of first-time buyers and buyer types. Specialist lending has increased over the last 24 months or so you know. So we're looking more now at people maybe with increasing adverse credit or credit blips. So it's a it's a changing landscape. I think rates as well this year have been effective on the market. The rates have been gradually falling, but even within that we've seen blips where they've gone back up or whatnot. But I think the general landscape again is that rates are slowly dropping throughout this year, which hopefully is going to generate some growth as well.

Callum Wilkinson:

Because with the consumers, when we're talking about affordability, we're talking about the rates increasing. You're not just looking at first-time buyers or new purchases that are maybe being shocked by how much the monthly payments might be, but even just the existing customers who've had their rates going up from maybe 1%, 1.5% up to your 4s and your 5s throughout the last year, which again is then looking at what changes can we make to the mortgage? Are we extending mortgage terms? We're talking about going into retirement and the debt into retirement. So it's a bigger picture. It's an interesting landscape. Still, we've obviously got changes that might come from the new government and, as we continue to see what happens with the rates, base rate changes that we're hoping that will come in through sort of the quarter three and quarter four in 2024 as well. So there's still business out there. There's still people looking to make purchases. The business may be slightly different. Advisors are having to maybe diversify the business areas that they're operating in, but yeah, generally it's still pretty good in the mortgage space.

Paul Glynn:

It sounds like there's a lot of positive things to look forward to as we emerge from the summer, and you've touched on a couple of points there that I think we'll pick up on in questions in a minute, particularly on the impact of a general election. So we'll revisit that in a second. But Will, what are you seeing in terms of trends from your perspective?

Will Hale:

Well, it's interesting, paul. I think the seasonality that Callum talked about in the mainstream mortgage market is something that the later life market doesn't always see. A lot of our customers tend not to go away in the summer and therefore it tends to be quite a buoyant time for us, and we have seen activity at the sort of front end of the funnel, whether that be in terms of air and sourcing sessions or whether in the internal advice business in terms of the inquiries we see coming in. They have held up pretty well. So there is certainly demand in the market.

Will Hale:

But I think advisors, both in our internal business and in sort of air's wider advisor community, are all commenting on the difficulty in getting customers to commit. And again that goes back to some of Callum's points around perceptions of the interest rate environment. I think a lot of customers have been sitting on their hands waiting for the election to pass and expecting rates to come down on the back of sort of Bank of England predicted moves, whether that be in August or even later in the summer. So it's quite challenging, I think, for advisors to be able to help customers progress and commit to a transaction, particularly in the later life market when you're talking about products that are long-term products and are a significant commitment. So customers are probably understandably quite reticent to take that jump at the moment. So for us it's about giving advisors all the tools to show customers why it is the right time to move forward and that rates, whilst they may come down, are still not particularly high if you look at sort of long-term historic averages. So it's giving, as I say, customers and advisors that confidence that the propositions that we put in front of them are sort of suitable for their sort of needs and circumstances.

Will Hale:

So that's definitely a sort of big theme in the market at the moment. Circumstances so that's definitely a sort of big theme in the market at the moment. And then I think the other theme which is really positive actually for the later life market moving forward is the sort of continued sort of innovation we're seeing in the product space. So you know many more products giving sort of bespoke options for customers in terms of making repayments or in terms of rates being tailored according to health and lifestyle circumstances etc. So it's it's a more complex world for advisors in the later life space.

Will Hale:

So again it sort of points to the importance of the sort of education services and tools that the likes of AIR provides to give advisors everything they need to advise in a comprehensive way across those full range of products. So really exciting times actually, as we sort of come into the sort of second half of the year. It's certainly been a market that hasn't sort of taken off in 2024 as we perhaps all all hoped, but I'm certainly uh sort of very optimistic about, uh, the second half of the year and and seeing volumes increase it sounds like there's plenty of food for thought for people who are planning what their businesses need to look like at the at the exit of 2024 and into 2025.

Paul Glynn:

Um, from what you both said, I think you both mentioned the election, um, so I just want to pick up on that for a minute. So you know, has have you seen a change in in customer appetite since the election?

Callum Wilkinson:

from our point of view? I, I don't think so, not not this immediately. Anyway. I mean, I think a lot of the I think the general consensus across the board was that we were going to have a change of government, and I think when we're looking at swap rates, uh, you know, specifically for linking to mortgage rates, it already seemed to be factored in, so there wasn't a big shock shock in terms of mortgage rates, and I think you know we it's not. We haven't seen necessarily a noticeable change yet. But I think there's still an element of waiting to see what's gonna.

Callum Wilkinson:

You know, what the new government is going to bring in terms of, you know, innovation on products, obviously a big one that we're looking at as a house building, and you know, know, when are those plans actually going to come or even start to to be delivered? What does that look like? What changes are going to be made? So, I think, as a direct result of the election, I wouldn't say that I've seen a anything particular, uh, as a change yet, but I think, again, it's just going to be over the next few months and the rest of 2024. And as we look towards the autumn budget and what might come out of that that can generate some consumer interest and again give us a really good end to 2024, we're just quite positive, like Will said, quite positive about what changes can come from that and I think it's just going to take a little bit of time for any effects of the actual result of the election to to bed in really okay.

Paul Glynn:

So what? What sort of things do you think should our um listeners and viewers start to bear in mind as potential opportunities that could emerge from a change in in the political landscape? So I agree with you, Callum. A lot of the election result was expected. Maybe the size of the majority was something people were a little unsure about how that landed, but ultimately the result was broadly expected. So with that, what should our principals and advisors be starting to think through as they put their plans for back of this year and into next year into play?

Will Hale:

Yeah, I think that's a really good way of looking at it, paul, because, like Callum, I don't think yet we've observed any sort of significant change in customer or advisor behaviour on the back of the election results, but I do think it creates an opportunity for advisors to have different conversations with customers. I think you know Callum rightly sort of pointed out to the sort of new homes initiatives that Labour have talked about, and I certainly think that's an opportunity for advisors to talk around how to help first time buyers onto the property ladder and, as everyone knows, you need later life lending solutions for parents or grandparents even can be a good way of helping first-time buyers increase their deposit and make home ownership more achievable for that cohort of the population. So that's definitely something I think advisors should be talking to customers about. I think also, you know, though there's still some uncertainty around elements of their policies. I think it's undoubtedly they're going to look at sort of taxation in terms of sort of IHT and therefore the opportunities potentially for older customers to take equity sort of from their properties sort of now and use that equity to fulfill, whether that be sort of gifting purposes or even lifestyle purposes. I think that's that that can be a conversation that advisors can can have with, can have with customers.

Will Hale:

I think also, again on that theme, you know, private school fees. So I think Labour have said it's going to be 12 months before that policy around adding VAT to school fees. So I think Labour have said it's going to be 12 months before that policy around adding VAT to school fees comes in. But I think a number of private schools are looking at ways that customers sort of can pay up front and benefit from you know that the current pricing levels, rather than with VAT included. So again, it might be an opportunity for parents or grandparents to help out with sort of school fees if they can release equity from their properties to do that.

Will Hale:

And then I think the other interesting area is around leasehold reform. So I think you know Labour have been clear that they intend to continue with the sort of policies pursued by the Conservative government around sort of leasehold reform. And again there should be opportunities for leaseholders to buy the freehold for their property at a reasonable level under those reforms. And again, equity release or later life lending solutions can be a sort of vehicle for customers to consider if they're pursuing that strategy. So again, in summary, I think I don't think there's any great surprises out there. I don't think there's anything that has massively changed customer behavior in the short term. But with any change in the market it's a great opportunity for advisors to pick up the phone, talk to customers and really sort of talk to them about the help and support and services that they can provide. So you know my recommendation and you know what we're telling our advisors is to use this as an opportunity.

Paul Glynn:

You know, pick up the phone and and really engage with your customers and find out what their needs and objectives are for the next few years, it does sound as though there'd be plenty of reasons to discuss you value of advisor customers and I think, given the breadth of your organization, callum, in terms of the types of advisors that you support, it definitely feels like there's work to do there. But I just want to pick out one of the other parts that you mentioned in your opening comments, callum, where you talked about first-time buyers. So what are the challenges faced by first-time buyers at the moment and the specific strategies in the current context where people are getting onto the housing ladder a lot later, they're taking out much longer terms in terms of their borrowing. What's the strategy that a firm and an advisor should think through in that context?

Callum Wilkinson:

I think one of the biggest issues that we've got is just the consumer perspective or feeling about young people don't feel like they can get on the property.

Callum Wilkinson:

They don't feel like they can get a mortgage until they've got £50,000 as a deposit and they're earning a really good wage and it's just simply not the case. So I think there's a bigger picture of actually first-time buyers not realizing that they can just speak to an independent mortgage advisor, go and get some really good advice, find out what potentially they can borrow and start that plan to get on the ladder and buy their first home. So I think that's just a bigger picture perspective which needs to change. I think that's just a bigger picture perspective which needs to change. I think there's several ways that we can potentially do that. I think one of the key ones is marketing from both, I'd say, the lenders and also the advisors out there. Are advisors marketing themselves well enough to get new clients in? Are they focusing on getting that new business in? In our own network there's some advisors that don't't do any digital marketing, they don't do social media and that's their choice. That's fine. But those advisors who who want to go out there and get the new business. We're now looking at the social media, digital marketing, newsletters, websites and and that is ultimately where your first-time buyers and your younger customers are going to be. I think seeing a lot of that marketing now with social media and online.

Callum Wilkinson:

So I think, just across the board, creating more awareness for the opportunities that are out there for first-time buyers because there are schemes out there. I think the one scheme that was taken away, which I used myself as the help to buy equity loan I thought that was really really good for first-time buyers when people struggling for for deposit um, that was taken away. The potential plans for for the new government to bring something similar uh back in, which I think would be really good. But equally it's been a lot of good innovation from lenders, um. So we've got um accords, uh 5k deposit mortgage which they'll end up to 99% loan to value. You've got Skipton's track record mortgage product for for renters and helping them get on the ladder and purchase a property. So there are schemes out there and there are opportunities out there.

Callum Wilkinson:

I think just the bigger, bigger issue is is first-time buyers not realizing that they can have that good conversation with a mortgage advisor or a financial advisor and just get on that plan to save for a deposit and and put that plan in place so they can achieve their goals, um. But I think, yeah, again, we've got to see what the new government's going to bring in, what plans they're going to. They're going to bring for first time buyers. Building more houses is going to, of course, help with that and potential schemes that that can come along with that. We still got shared ownership, um. We've got the mortgage guarantee scheme, um, currently in the market as well, which, again, all of these things that there is enthusiasm from lenders and from the government to help first-time buyers, um, I think it's a lot of. It is just that consumer's perspective on not realizing that as a first-time buyer, you potentially do have more options than you might think.

Paul Glynn:

I agree with that. A couple of things came out in our earlier podcasts where one of our experts was talking about average age of a first-time buyer in the Southeast now being 37. It's an intergenerational concern. So you've got lots of lender-led solutions there around helping people take some of that pain out of that deposit build and that first step onto the housing ladder. But there must be things that a wider family can do Will from a later life lending perspective, which can help in an overall planning strategy.

Will Hale:

there must be things that a wider family can do well from a later life lending perspective, which can help in an overall planning strategy yeah, as I said, I touched on it on in some of my earlier comments, but, just picking up on what callum said, I think you know there is a role to play obviously for for intermediaries and indeed lenders, in terms of engaging with sort of younger potential buyers through social media and other sort of digital channels. But we shouldn't forget that intergenerational aspect as well. So I think mortgage brokers particularly forget sometimes that sitting within their book they've got customers who have children or grandchildren who want to get on the property ladder. So as you're doing your mortgage review, at the time that a fixed rate expires or a repayment period is coming to a conclusion, I think a simple step is to ask those customers about who in their family sort of is looking to get onto the property ladder. Or even make that second step, your existing database. You know, without having to pay new customer acquisition costs, if you're talking to your existing customers about their family and friends and sort of the other bits and pieces, that there's huge opportunity within that existing database.

Will Hale:

And again, it sort of what we're really trying to encourage advisors to do is think more laterally about how later life lending solutions can be used to fit a variety of different needs.

Will Hale:

So first time buyers and equity release wouldn't typically be talked about in the sort of same sentence. But actually that's missing an opportunity because, if you can, I say, talk to parents or grandparents about how they could release equity via one of those products in order to then gift to children to help them onto the housing ladder. Well, that's a solution that can work for all of the generations sort of very, very well. And it's not just about sort of creating a deposit to allow someone to get onto the housing ladder. It's also making sure that that first mortgage is affordable. So a higher deposit often means a lower rate and therefore brings down the sort of monthly expenses. So I'd be encouraging sort of all mortgage brokers to to talk to their customers and really explore those opportunities, perhaps in a bit more depth than they are at the moment and you both talk there about um, you about firms that have built up a mortgage book.

Paul Glynn:

So there's no doubt a lot of effort and brand thought and a lot of hard yards goes into building up a client bank. I just want to chat through in some way what you think the impacts are in a couple of different areas around managing debt into retirement and the impacts on ongoing reviews for that kind of customer bank. So, callum, we know advisors are working really hard to support customers with product transfers at the moment or term extensions. So what impact does that have on a mortgage specialist business, especially commercially, because that's a lot of work to support customers you've built up. But there's some hidden impacts there.

Callum Wilkinson:

Across the last 24 months, the new business, the purchase business, has been down you could say down significantly. So a lot of advisors, and especially, you know, some of our more experienced advisors within our network, have relied on their existing client bank and you know we stress the importance of client retention. Just briefly touching on what Will mentioned there about looking at the opportunities within your own client bank, but bringing it back to just the specific mortgage rate or mortgage review they might deal with again, we've seen an increase in product transfers. You know, we all know that product transfers commercially, um, you know, do earn less than the new business, whether that's a remortgage or a purchase. You know there's issue around potentially charging broker fees, uh, and with consumer duty as well, with you can just look at that fair value for customers. So, with the commercial value within within your client bank, whilst it's good that you've got that there and you've got that business to review and you don't necessarily have to go out there, spend money on the digital marketing to bring, try and bring in new business, equally you're right in terms of the commercial value within that when you're looking at product transfers, it is it can be damaging to that um, to that business. But I think you know there's there's there's still opportunities within that and I know you know looking at as part of that review it's not focusing on purely the, the mortgage rate. Within that was looking at the, the entire situation. We uh, we mandate for all uh mortgage rate reviews for any of our advisors do that whole of market searches is done, you know. So you're not just focusing on just a product transfer, just switching that rate, and within that as well we promote their protection.

Callum Wilkinson:

Conversations had and we and we also want to promote looking at all of those options, bringing it back to equity release and looking at the later life lending options again with a lot of those mature client banks. Those clients are into their 50s or 60s maybe and if it's just, if it's just been multiple, you know product transfers or rate reviews over a number of years. You know what conversations have been had about different options. You know looking at interest only as well. In our own you know, within rosemount, a lot of our equity releases still interest only, repayment at the end of the term. So what can be done with those mortgage buyers to review that 10 or 15 years ahead rather than waiting until that time. So there's a lot of opportunity within that.

Callum Wilkinson:

But yeah, it's no secret that the commercial value with product transfers is, you know, will have affected a lot of mortgage brokers and it's maybe maybe meant they they have got to, when they haven't done it before, go out there and try and chase new business or they're they're having to to recalibrate how they run their business, um, but yeah, you know, again it's, it's hopefully with a bit of um, you know, we can get some enthusiasm within the market and bring that new business in and advisors aren't having to necessarily rely on their, their client bank, um, like they have done for the past 24 months. But it's still so important because you've got so much opportunity within that um, like we were just saying there. So, um, but yeah, it's, it's, it can be, um, or it has been, you know, a bit of a wake-up call for a lot of advisors as well that are just relying on that client bank and just doing product transfers. That is just not commercially, nowhere near as commercially beneficial as doing new business and looking at all the different areas.

Paul Glynn:

It's definitely one of those areas where I think advisors are doing a fabulous job for customers, and it's probably one of those points where they never get really the credit that they're due for their work, or nor the lenders who've made some of that possible as well.

Callum Wilkinson:

Whilst we like a market or a climate where rates are dropping. You're then potentially doing five rate changes because you want to do the deal six months ahead. With most lenders you can do that, but then when they're changing the rates, you want to make sure you change the rate for the client. So then you're ending up doing so much more work because that's not just as simple as changing the rate. You've got to then do a new suitability letter, you've got to upload new documents into your crm, and so you're doing all of this work for a reduced proc fee, where you're not necessarily able to charge a broker fee.

Callum Wilkinson:

So again, commercially it's not even just a product transfer. There's so much extra work involved because you're doing a good job for the client. Um, you know. So, yeah, mortgage brokers doing fantastic job with it and they're looking after their clients and making sure they're getting good deals, but they're not necessarily for themselves earning more from that potentially less, and it's yeah, and it's difficult, and if you've got more of those customers who are managing debt into retirement because those client banks are getting older as I think, we've said Will.

Paul Glynn:

what are your thoughts? In particular, if we've got client banks and commercial positions that Callum's just outlined there, where more and more people are carrying debt into retirement, client banks are getting older, then commercially there should still be an opportunity to drive good outcomes off the back of a more holistic approach to advice.

Will Hale:

Yeah, so putting a sort of later life lens onto that sort of challenge or opportunity, I think for me it's one of these sort of unique situations actually where there is a fantastic chance for the advisor community to demonstrate the ability to deliver better outcomes for customers whilst at the same time delivering a better commercial result for themselves. I heard a stat yesterday, actually when I was sitting on the AIME board, that about 84% of remortgage business is currently done through product transfers and, as Callum said, at 0.2% proc fee or whatever's the sort of average rate applied to that. You know that's nota particularly commercially attractive proposition for advisors given the amount of time and effort that goes into processing that business. But I also think there's a customer outcome sort of lens on that when you look at older customers as well, because, as we've discussed, the inevitability is that more older customers are going to be taking their debt into later life. Yet, as we all know, through a product transfer, what you're effectively doing is avoiding some of that affordability assessment by taking that route. Now, that may be seen as a positive by the advisor and the customer in some instances, but there's also an argument for that. Some of those customers all you're doing is sort of pushing the can down the road and not addressing some of the sort of issues that are there around affordability, sort of here and now, and that's why I think sort of considering later life lending products within that conversation is the right thing to do for the customer but also creates a commercial opportunity for the advisor as well.

Will Hale:

So the range of later life lending products that are now available, whether that's RIOs, whether it's the products that a lot of the building societies are offering especially aimed at sort of older customers, or whether it's the new breed of modern lifetime mortgages that allow either mandatory payments or optional partial repayments to be made to help mitigate the impact of compound interest All of those solutions I think should be in the mix when talking to customers over the age of 50 who are looking to remortgage. And, as we all know, if you're looking particularly at lifetime mortgages, the procuration fees that come attached to those products are probably four or five times more than would be available on a traditional mortgage, and you know even greater, clearly, when considering what's available for product transfers. So so in some ways I think it's it's again I come back to that point about the challenges getting mainstream mortgage advisors to think differently about this space. I mean just churning out two-year, five-year fixed rate mortgages or just defaulting to a product transfer, if it's available, is not the right option. But if you look a little bit deeper and go a little bit further in your research, then there are really commercially attractive sort of options there that can give better outcomes for your customers.

Will Hale:

And I think the other thing is, you know, don't be put off if you don't have the equity release qualification, because there are opportunities to work with specialists in that area around referral options. Referral fee for a customer ends up transacting will also give a much better financial result than than progressing potentially through a for a product transfer, and I'm sure Callum can talk about it. But all of the network partners that we work with will have referral mechanisms in place, whether that be for specialists within their own network or or other sort of third party sort of specialist advice firms. So again, my my sort of my request, I suppose, of mainstream mortgage advisors would be to think more laterally, to consider these, whether these products would be suitable for your customers, and then make sure you form strong relationships with trusted referral partners. So you've always got a good route to refer these customers. If it's the right thing to do, yeah thanks, will Callum.

Paul Glynn:

is that practical support that you're offering to your network members as it stands at the moment?

Callum Wilkinson:

Yep so we've always had a referral route in place which is internal within the network but equally with all of our advisors. We don't necessarily mandate that. So we work with a number of master brokers for more specialist lending, sort of bridging commercial stuff, but they'll do later life stuff as well. So we always want to make sure there's as many doors open as possible. But equally, we've got it's about 25 equity-released qualified advisors within the network and we've got um it's about 25 uh equity release qualified advisors, um within the network and we've got another 12 or so that want to take their exams because, again, they're realizing this diversification, they've got to do with their, with their business over the next few years and they're looking at the commercial opportunity that that's there. So we're putting together a support package for those advisors who want to qualify um, because we've also got a support package for those advisors who want to qualify, because we've also got a number of those 25 advisors already qualified that aren't transacting equity release business and we asked for some feedback on that and I think a lot of them.

Callum Wilkinson:

It is spotting those opportunities.

Callum Wilkinson:

They've got the qualification, they're happy with the process of it, but they're not sure how to spot those opportunities and I think that's the the key message with with, with what we're talking about sort of throughout this year, of mortgage advisors, whether they've got the qualification or not, spotting those opportunities.

Callum Wilkinson:

So we're putting together also a support, a support route after qualification in conjunction with with there, to help those advisors spot those opportunities and also any support that they need from an advice process point of view, working with the AIR system and the AIR Academy in support to get them to help them sort of hit the ground running, spot those opportunities and realise the commercial benefit from it. And Rosemount as a network we're looking to do more equity release and just open those doors for exactly what Will's just said there about the opportunities there and making sure that when a client's having a regular review, that they know that that option's there and the advisor, most importantly I think, knows that the option's there and can spot where those opportunities are to have that conversation. So we we're really but behind this and you know, really keen to uh to open those doors to advisors and our clients as well and that's something that we we really strongly support.

Paul Glynn:

Uh, you know the, the marketing support that's in the insights hub and the marketing hub, the training material that's in the Insights Hub and the marketing hub, the training material that's in the academy are all there, supported by our LIBF accredited program to help firms make that transition. Just listening to some of the comments from you both there, I'm starting to, in my mind, see some parallels between the thought process for advisors in whether they get involved in the later life lending market to whether they get involved in more depth in the protection market. So is that something that you can both draw parallels from?

Will Hale:

I certainly think there's some merit in that sort of way of thinking.

Will Hale:

When I sort of engage with sort of network heads across the market, sort of protection is obviously a key theme Number one.

Will Hale:

Ensuring that if customers are taking out a mortgage they are appropriately protected is clearly a good thing to do from a customer outcome perspective. But high levels of protection penetration are also a key commercial driver for the financials of the business, whether that be the network or the individual advisor or their firm. So I think there is a sort of a look across in terms of making sure that, as with protection, later life lending options are made more visible to advisors, that they get more comfortable with the options out there, they're more confident in assessing those and, like with some sort of advisors in the protection space, they won't write the protection themselves, They'll pass those protection cases on to a specialist. So I think there are sort of similarities. There are differences as well and I'm sure sort of Callum will have views about where the differences are. But you know, I certainly think from looking at that customer outcome and commercial angle there's definitely a look across to the success that has been had by sort of protection writers in this market.

Callum Wilkinson:

I'd probably say we're a bit behind protection in terms of it, it being in the the mind of the advisor.

Callum Wilkinson:

It's been forced down advisors throats effectively, I'm sure, from from us to our advisors, but also, like you say, across across many different networks, the importance of protection. I think advisors you know, at least at least the time I've been in the industry, I've always understood the uh, the importance of protection, especially in conjunction with uh with a mortgage um, but you know you're right, not all of them necessarily right themselves, but I think it's it's much more involved within the conversation. I think equity release again especially, I see from my point of view in our network it's it's still not. I don't think it's thought of in the same way as protection. I don't think it's thought necessarily as part of a conversation that you have with a mortgage client. I think that's the purpose of the comprehensive conversations and these campaigns is to get it in that conversation with advisors when they're talking to their mortgage clients and we're talking about the older borrowers and it being part of that conversation, like protection is.

Will Hale:

I would just personally say it's not at that stage yet, but I think that's a target, certainly in our business, to get it part of that conversation and be thought of effectively as as important as protection when having that conversation with mortgage clients yeah, I, I absolutely recognize that from the conversations I have around the market and I think you know maybe one of the ways to sort of change that behavior is to sort of make sure that the consideration is embedded within the advice process and and I know as as air through tools like the navigator tool, which sort of helps advisors to triage customers over the age of 50 to make clear what product solutions may be available.

Will Hale:

So, across Rio, mainstream and equity release, so that almost you are sort of forcing that conversation to be had because a tool is involved in that process. And I think it's things like that that can change behaviors and change the outcomes ultimately the customers are getting. Because if equity release isn't something that you're used to talking about day in, day out, it can be an afterthought and it can be missed. And I think I completely agree with you that there is a sort of learning, I think to the success that's been had in the protection market for for changing behavior and to make sure protection is included in every conversation that you have with a customer who's taking out a mortgage. And I think the same sort of thing can be applied to making sure that all product options are considered for customers over the age of 50.

Callum Wilkinson:

And we haven't first time we've really touched on the tech side of this. As a business, we're very tech focused. We're investing a lot in our own infrastructure and, you know, looking for that to be a top priority really over the next few years. That technology is, you know, used across the business, where it's still, at times, I think, across the industry. You know we're a little bit backwards that's probably an understatement in terms of technology, but I think the work specifically that's been done with there in terms of the navigator, in terms of right route, in terms of the, the sourcing system, I think is fantastic and I think embedding that better in the in the process again across the industry for advisors, you know will help those.

Callum Wilkinson:

That conversation, conversation piece and you know we're looking at, you know, for example, crm system that we've got, maybe mortgage sourcing and protection sourcing, including there. It's part of the journey, it's embedded, you know it's looking into the future of you know where's the equity released within that entire process to make it that bit easier. And I think, like we said, the navigator tool, that's fantastic for spotting those opportunities, looking at all of those options and it's just as an industry trying to be, you know, I think a little bit more standardized and just having that focus on tech and it being collaborative. And that takes time for many different reasons. But I'm glad that, especially between Rosemount and Ayr, we've both got those views on tech and wanting to work together and collaborate into the future and I think that's going to be fantastic for not only our advisors but advisors across the industry.

Paul Glynn:

It's all about for us at Ayr thanks for that, callum. It's all about for thanks for that column. It's all about for us removing barriers for people who want to support customers in this space, technology being an enabler, and I think we've said on previous podcasts in this series it's about creating some golden time customers. So the more we utilize technology to do that, we use artificial intelligence where we can to to create time, and that's advisor intelligence where we can to create time, and that's advisor intelligence then playing into supporting the customer. So great comments there from both of you, thank you. Thanks for joining us in series one of the Master Later Life Lending Podcast. If you enjoyed listening to the comprehensive conversations, please take a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support helps others discover the show. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and follow us on social media for exclusive content. We'll be back in series two with more comprehensive conversations.