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How Can Advisors Provide Truly Holistic Advice in Later Life Lending?

• Paul Glynn

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Unlock the secrets to thriving in the later life lending market with our expert guests, Liz Wilkie from Primus Mortgage Network and Graham Bradley from the Money Group. Gain actionable insights on how personalized advice can transform your approach to client care, particularly when it comes to affordability, health, and vulnerability. Explore the latest product innovations and learn how keeping abreast of these changes can significantly enhance the quality of service you provide to your clients.

Join us as we spotlight the importance of comprehensive planning for financial well-being in later life. Our guests delve into the nuances of power of attorney and wills, emphasizing how these tools can simplify matters for beneficiaries. They discuss breaking down biases and stigmas around health issues and vulnerability, advocating for early interventions that can lead to better financial outcomes. By understanding income, expenditure, and affordability, advisors can help clients harness the power of compound interest, ensuring a more secure financial future for them and their families.

We also tackle the evolving financial landscape, highlighting the benefits of innovative products like equity release and retirement interest-only mortgages. The conversation shifts to how lenders and product designers can enhance offerings by incorporating insights from client conversations, handling vulnerability data more effectively, and fostering collaboration across markets. With a focus on education and awareness, the episode aims to prepare you for guiding clients through complex financial decisions, ensuring they are well-equipped for their long-term financial journeys.

The Master Later Life Lending Podcast is aimed at qualified advisers in the mortgage or financial services industry. 

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Paul Glynn:

Welcome back to Master Later Life Lending, the podcast that brings you expert insights and strategies for staying ahead in the later life lending market. I'm your host, paul Glynn, and we're going to explore a crucial topic for advisors looking to offer top tier service how can advisors provide truly holistic advice in later life lending? In this episode, we'll be discussing the importance of engaging in comprehensive conversations with clients at every stage of life, how personalization especially around affordability, health and vulnerability can enhance your advice, and we'll take a closer look at the latest product innovations in the market. Closer look at the latest product innovations in the market. Joining me for this comprehensive conversation is Liz Wilkie from Primus Mortgage Network and Graham Bradley from the Money Group. Both are here to share their expertise on how to deliver holistic and personalized advice while staying ahead of the latest market trends.

Paul Glynn:

Whether you're an experienced later life lending advisor or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical insights to help you better serve your clients, both now and in the future. So, liz Graham, welcome to this latest episode. Could you start by just telling us a little bit about your day-to-day role? So, liz, could you go first, please?

Liz Wilkie:

Yes, sure. So I work at Primus, which is essentially a mortgage and protection network, and I look after the lending to partners. So my role is strategic partnership manager, which also involves looking after the later life lenders and the relationships that we hold with them Outside of Primus. I'm obviously really passionate about later life lending as a whole and I sit on the Equity Release Council Standards Committee.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, Liz. So, Graham, a little bit about you for our listeners and viewers.

Graham Bradley:

Yeah, so my name's Graham. Yeah, I recently joined the money group on the AR oversight managers, which covers a couple of different areas, so I take care of the compliance element for our authorized representatives. Also, as a part of my remit, I take a look at our social media, but also our equity release proposition and what that looks like on a day-to-day basis.

Paul Glynn:

Thank you. Okay, so this episode will will cover, as we said at the top of it, the holistic advice process in later life lending. So can we just start by defining for you personally, for our listeners, what holistic advice means to you and why it's important in the in the context of older borrowers. So let's go to you first, liz, on that one.

Liz Wilkie:

Yeah, I feel very much that it's really important that older borrowers are completely aware of all the solutions that are available to them. You know, in the mortgage world there are lots of different options, either via a standard mortgage, interest-only mortgages, reos, later life and I feel it's really important that clients are fully aware of the full suite of products that are available to them and that they know that downsizing, particularly, isn't the only option that's available to them.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, liz and Graham. Just building on that. What challenges does that present in terms of holistic advice and what it means to you? What does that present to an advisor when the client expects a really quick, narrow focused solution in the context of later life lending?

Graham Bradley:

I think the main thing, realistically, is fully understanding the client's needs and circumstances. Although they might be coming to you with a specific need that they want to take out, equity release, you as the advisor needs to be able to advise and being able to run through a full holistic approach of understanding what the client's needs, circumstances, health, specifically, allows you to realistically narrow down the menu because we've got a wide range of choice that we can look to recommend. But we need to fully understand that client need and circumstances to be able to narrow that down and ensure what we recommend is going to be appropriate now but also in the future, depending on what their need is Okay, and so part of that process could mean the answer's no 100% yeah, or it could.

Paul Glynn:

A part of that process Could mean the answer's no 100% yeah, or it could mean that payments are needed. So, liz, just thoughts from you in terms of how that drives cost of borrowing control and how important that is in that kind of holistic context.

Liz Wilkie:

I think realistically to offer full holistic advice.

Liz Wilkie:

I think realistically to offer full holistic advice, all advisors and brokers need to fully understand the client situation and the clients need to fully understand the benefits of disclosing all information to brokers so that they can be offered, I mean, later. Life's probably one of only two types of products that you receive better terms if you are in ill health, whereas you know with protection or whatever, people can be frightened to disclose full information. I think that the real key driver is to get the best suitable outcome for the client, which we all know and we all remember. But without having all of the information, it's not always possible to do that. If you disclose something, it can open another door, whereas I think that it's the overall mindset that suggests if you disclose that you've got, for example, diabetes or a heart condition in the protection space, it can mean something's going to be more expensive to you. So I think it's really about letting clients know the benefit of full disclosure so that then there are so many products that are available and have been built specifically tailored to people's needs.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, I just want to explore that a bit more then. So, just in terms of the you know the drawing out of that information, um, you know the importance of a comprehensive conversation at all stages. I mean, you know it applies earlier in life as well as to to an older borrower, but, um, how important is that? Is that conversation, graham? And and how might that impact the end? Advice for the customer.

Graham Bradley:

Yeah, I think, especially around health and in this day and age with consumer duty and vulnerability specifically, we need to ensure that we're having those conversations with our clients. And I think Liz is right there is that stigma around disclosure, especially people's potential current understanding if they've not come across equity release before that. Normally it's around a protection conversation and that tends to usually carry some form of increased premium or something along the lines of that. And it's down to us as advisors to help understand what those clients' needs, vulnerabilities are, but also to educate the clients as we go through that process and actually make them aware that no, going through this disclosure is actually potentially going to be beneficial for what you're looking to do yeah, because most of them will be used to disclose information.

Paul Glynn:

It means it normally costs me money, whether that's home insurance or car insurance, we've all, we've all been there. When you unfortunately end up with some points or you know you've had to make a claim, then that disclosure does cost you money. So it is encouraging people that there's a benefit to personalizing that advice at the back of the process. You both and I want to explore health slightly differently, in a different context, in a minute when we touch on vulnerability, in a different context in a minute when we we touch on on vulnerability. But just going back to to that, you know comprehensive conversation and some of the signposting that could come out of it you both deal with. You know specialist or or er or um mortgage brokers. You know how important is reverse signposting from either end of that spectrum, important in that context of that comprehensive conversation.

Graham Bradley:

In a consumer duty driven world I think, especially in this day and age, it's signposting is really checking that client understanding as you're going through it. Equity release can be quite a lengthy meeting dependent on what your clients needs are and potentially vulnerabilities, and actually signposting to check that understanding with your client is just checking in making sure they're happy with what you're going through and what you're actually doing so.

Liz Wilkie:

Core part liz is could be the signposting then definitely definitely, and and I agree, I think that, um, we're very well versed in the in the equity release market at completely discounting all of the products to get to an equity release solution. But I think that potentially, there are so many tools that can assist brokers now that when they're dealing with clients of a certain age demographic, we should be signposting that, yes, there is a mortgage available for you that will take you to age X. However, there are also other solutions that may be better long term. A concern that I see in the market with the push up, if you like, in the mainstream world of maximum lending ages, is that we have clients that will most likely be deemed as vulnerable at, say, age 80, for example, or 78 or 79. They will definitely be falling into that category and there are potentially other solutions that could be set up prior with the new products that we've got coming to the marketplace. So I think if you could make a decision that would secure your future when you're late 60s, you're likely to be more financially aware and astute than you could be at, say, age 80.

Liz Wilkie:

I don't like the aspect of kicking the can down the road with advice. It's stressful. It's stressful having anything to do with financial debt, if you like, I suppose for want of a better word a mortgage commitment. It's stressful to organize and I just think, with the suite of products that are coming to the marketplace now, we could do better in saying, okay, yeah, this would, would meet this need right here and now, but this need would actually mean that that property stays with you until you either pass away or move into long-term care I would 100 agree, especially with um, specifically if we're talking about, say, the mortgage side of things outside of the equity release.

Graham Bradley:

I know the market especially is a lot more heavily in the product transfers. But we as advisors we need to be understanding our clients' needs and that might be a product transfer might not necessarily be the right thing. It might be that they're getting to that age where they're looking to reduce their costs down and equity release might be an option from that point of view to.

Paul Glynn:

Given the amount of product change that we're seeing across the landscape, whether that's, you know, innovation from the likes of live more or perenna, or in the equity release space itself, I think it's really important we come across this with you know the broad spectrum of air members that we deal with that it's really important and we come across this with you know the broad spectrum of air members that we deal with that it's really important that our advisors know enough to be able to signpost um and there are, you know there are a lot of sources of education out there to support that.

Paul Glynn:

There's a lot of tools you know we've developed them, but so have other clubs as well and propositions to support that. Signposting um Because, you know, balanced in this is a firm's right to operate in the part of the market that they want to, so they don't have to advise on all of it. It's their right, within the regulations, to keep their propositions as narrow or as broad as they want to. But if you do that, I think it is from a narrowing perspective. It's still important that you know enough to be able to support that customer to signpost them somewhere else.

Graham Bradley:

I think that's key and important more on the network side of things as well, to ensure that if, if a firm is say narrowed and looking specifically only at equity release, that there are routes available for them to potentially refer into. So it's allowing we, as advisors, to give the client the best option, depending on the conversations we're having.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, and we've definitely explored that in one or two other elements of our podcast series as well. So they're both the commercial benefits, the proposition benefits and the drive to support the end customer through making those decisions and being able to to build the right business to business relationships. So thank you about that. I just want to touch back on you know we've talked about health in the earlier part of this session, you know, and how important it can be to draw out the right information to personalize the advice. I really want to look at you know what, what's the difference between health and vulnerability, and call it out specifically because they're not the same thing. So, liz, can I just get get your view on that first?

Liz Wilkie:

yeah, I mean I I feel quite strongly that they are completely different and should be dealt with differently as parts of your find. Vulnerability isn't necessarily a constant. It can be a temporary vulnerability. I do think that all later life clients should, where possible, engage with the power of attorney so that, should it be needed, needed it's there. But that would come overall.

Liz Wilkie:

You know, I would also recommend that any later life client has a will um, you know, just for simplicity, for beneficiaries and such like, but when, when it comes to health, it's it is completely separate and it can give real benefits to the client. I think that there should be oh, I'm going to go right wild and say I think that there should be more mandating of health questions, because if you have to give an answer or you have to fill a box in, you will address it. So if people are uncomfortable in asking health questions or digging into health questions, it's a really good tool. If you have to put something into a box to say I need to fill this in because this can be beneficial to you. It's a prompt um. If you don't have to fill anything in about health, then there's an element to leave the box empty and potentially miss miss a product that would would give enhanced benefits to your client.

Paul Glynn:

Is that?

Graham Bradley:

something you recognise as well. Graham, yeah, 100%. So, specifically with vulnerability in health, clients can have vulnerable circumstances, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are vulnerable. I think it's very much. If there's that prompt there. It's trying to, as us advisors, breaking that customer bias around health and the stigma around that and again educating and and the stigma around that and again educating and making the client aware that that would be beneficial. Um, but again, it's, it's really understanding your client and as you go through that conversation, you'll get to know your client more and more and you can you can make that assessment yourself when you're going through that vulnerability, whether you need to potentially slow down, take a bit more time with the appointments, lengthen it out slightly more. But it might not necessarily mean a capability issue or anything like that.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah I mean vulnerability is transient, isn't it? So it can depend on circumstances. So probing around those circumstances and understanding you know whether they're temporary or permanent, can impact the way you approach a customer. I think it is right, liz, to separate the two out.

Liz Wilkie:

Yeah, can I just throw in as well. I think it's really important that it's fully explained to clients what the impact of you know, when we're assessing vulnerability, that you know all it will mean it doesn't have a detrimental effect. It's similar to the health questions. What it will mean is that you know you will have a bit more support rather than, oh, I'm being assessed as vulnerable. You will have a bit more support rather than, oh, I'm being assessed as vulnerable Again the terminology that we use in the industry. I don't think people want to be known as vulnerable, even on a temporary basis, so I think it's driving that to the end consumer back. That you know this means that you'll get more support. This means that if we need to contact you, there's a clearer explanation. You know that it's a positive not a negative.

Graham Bradley:

Yeah, especially some clients will have a bit of a stigma about that, but you as the advisor is just to educate them and it's just understanding from, say, the advisor point of view, how the client needs to be treated through throughout the advice process and that that might be as we say. It might take a bit more time, but it's just understanding your client and how they want to be treated through that whole holistic advice process.

Paul Glynn:

So they are different things but ultimately they can be positioned as that drives a personalized approach 100% To a personalized advice process with a personalized recommendation at the back. So I think it's really important to keep drawing that distinction out and just in terms of how we support that comprehensive conversation to to drive the right inputs into the recommendation. Um, I think, on health, it's really easy for people to slip into asking are you in good health, yes or no? And that's relative. It's relative to someone who may be taking multiple medications to keep a condition under control, so they do feel as though they're in really good health, but it's relative to managing a condition.

Graham Bradley:

So understanding your client base that you're dealing with as well, and especially what Liz said, it's asking those additional questions to probe and actually understand where your client is at.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, because the outputs of that could be huge. You know, massive rate discounts or increased LTV, and again that's areas that we've touched on in other podcasts, but I think it hugely overlaps in this space as well. So we talked about health. I just want to look again at another area of exploring. That comprehensive conversation could be around income and expenditure and affordability. So what impacts can making payments have on the recommendation and, I suppose, more broadly, the financial position of both the customer and their family in the longer term? Liz, can I come to you first on that one?

Liz Wilkie:

Yeah, sure, I think, although we've come a really long way with income and expenditure as the sector of the industry, I think to drive home the importance of it we need to be talking more about the end cost and the compound interest. If anyone can make a payment, then that's obviously going to be better in the long run. I think again, this, this sector of the market, is a bit of a flip on its head from the residential market. So actually you're in a more of a position where you can make small payments, you can make payments at the end of the year, and then we've got all our lovely new products that are coming to the market where you can make payments for a period of time and then stop making payments. That there's so much diversity that we're seeing in products at the moment.

Liz Wilkie:

It's it's so beneficial when looking at the income and expenditure because it really does give a detailed overview of.

Liz Wilkie:

You know, if they can make a payment, that's brilliant.

Liz Wilkie:

But actually if they're drawing down, what level of drawdown should they be taking that can support their income? If you know, potentially you could have a client that's saying to you I need to take this because I need to top up my pension client that's saying to you I need to take this because I need to top up my pension, okay, but if you take a smaller portion every six months or such like, the compound interest is less. So it's it's so vital I can't get my words out. I'm so excited about it. But it's so vital and so important because, at the end of the day, the client isn't paying interest on anything that they don't need. And it's getting that understanding that, either via drawdown or by making a payment, you're keeping the level flat, absolutely flat, and if you should need then to take further funds, you can have the loads of value space to do that, whereas when the interest is being added, that obviously in some circumstances that's what needs to happen, but you're also eating into your equity, so any further advances aren't protected.

Graham Bradley:

I think, yeah, very much. I agree with everything on there. But also to take it back is going through that income and expenditure with your client whether they're coming to you for that quick need, that they've spoken to their friend at a pub and equity release is the best option. Going through that income and expenditure you might actually ascertain that that might not necessarily be the route that you'll go down.

Paul Glynn:

You might end up looking at potentially a rio or potentially a standard residential mortgage, depending on what their needs are, but without having that conversation and actually going through that is one of those key parts of, again, holistic advice and understanding your client's needs as you go through it yeah, and I think taking that total view ensures that and it's come up topically from a political perspective over the last few weeks as well that everybody who should be claiming appropriate benefits does so, and that again only comes out from from asking and and drawing out the right part of the conversation.

Liz Wilkie:

So absolutely and obviously. Sorry to interrupt again, but obviously, if somebody is in receipt of any type of DLA or anything that would be impacted by a potential release, that's your initial signpost to let them know that that could happen, that they could lose a benefit because they will have x amount thanks, liz, and I think people want to hear from you, not me.

Paul Glynn:

So definitely interrupt, definitely interrupt. Um, just just switching the conversation again a little bit. So we've covered elements in terms of the advice process, um, and a lot of the focus on this holistic advice pieces has been on the, the advisor and their firm. I just want to flip this a little bit to the lenders and the product designers themselves. So, um, you know we we've seen a lot of product change in the in the last few months, a lot of utilization of some of these extra inputs. But how can, how can lenders better use some of the things that come out of a comprehensive conversation in future in their product designs? What would the two of you like to to see from lenders using this a bit more to power, you know, to give the advisors more power to personalize that recommendation.

Graham Bradley:

I think definitely for myself around the vulnerability piece. There's not too much there with how we pass that information over to said lender. A lot of lenders out there are asking it for potentially a third-party document, but having that as a part of an application process might streamline that across the board for advisors from that side of things and I guess specifically uh, liz, what you said before about having the actual medical questions within that as well on some of the applications might help aid that conversation and take that information sooner rather than later thanks, graham.

Paul Glynn:

Anything you you want to call out liz from your perspective yeah, I think I.

Liz Wilkie:

Yeah, I think we need to work as a marketplace as a whole. I think we could do with some support from the mainstream residential market for them to signpost for their interest-owning maturities that there are various solutions available. I think that if we're looking specifically at equity release and later lifelines, I think the if we're looking specifically at equity release and later lifelines, I think the innovation has been brilliant. I think that really we probably need to sort of flip a little bit on our head with what we're doing. The average first time buyer age is about 37 or 38 now. So we're looking at people working longer living longer as well, which is a complete bonus, but working longer and taking their mortgages over longer terms.

Liz Wilkie:

So I think we probably need products that will step in to accommodate that which we're really coming to. But I think any further development that we have. The only slight criticism I would have of the market is there's lots of different types of new innovation and it's very difficult then, from a consumer duty point of view, to assess the products. But I think any innovation is good. I just I feel like we need to raise the profile of this marketplace and the wider understanding piece. So any educational support lenders can give is really key.

Graham Bradley:

I think it's definitely that coming together, isn't it? So you see the residential we've spoken about here today, so you have the residential market and the equity release market. I think, as time moves forward, that separation is going to get closer and closer and that innovation from the residential side and the equity release side will start to blur more and more as things goes on, because I think that's very much of sort of like the way things are going and given being able to give full, holistic advice for a client, be it their first-time buyers or older customers, from that point of view, those lines will blur more and more, especially as more innovation comes out and there'll be a need or a call to action from lenders and the regulator to work together and give that overall best advice for the client.

Paul Glynn:

So what more could we talked about interest-only lenders there for a moment. What more could those interest-only lenders do to signpost not necessarily product but the need for advice as people reach the end of those terms? Because there's some parallels here from the retirement market where people build up pension funds to the point at which they need to make a decision, but leaving it to the end of that process is is too late for the customer really to get used to the fact that engaging in advice and there are multiple things they need to consider is ingrained in what their planning process looks like. I think what more could they do to push the right people, where they need it, into the advice process?

Liz Wilkie:

I think, realistically, the mainstream market signposts that solutions are needed. I think that there's probably work that could be done with the council, particularly with the interest-owning maturities. I think there's a lot of good work being done at the moment, but I think we could do more, and I think people need either at significant markers in their age so potentially turning 70, 67, et cetera. I think there should be age indicators that almost advise people that they're open to a different suite of products now they've hit this period in their lives. And I think generally, we need to talk about the solutions.

Liz Wilkie:

I think we need to normalize the solutions more, and I don't know enough about the high street itself to say well, if you went into the high street, would they be able to support you? Where? Where would any other branch be able to send a client to if they were saying you know my interest only mortgage finishes in 12 months, so I don't know what to do. We probably need to work as an industry to make sure people are signposted to the right places, and I know they use various charities. But it's the whole education piece for me I think very much so the the signposting.

Graham Bradley:

What they do at the moment is very much uh, you've got 12 months to go, you need to potentially pay this back. But I think there needs to be a conversation which is had slightly earlier than this and not necessarily give them be it they talk to money advice. I think there needs to be definitely potentially more of a stigma removing and actually looking at solutions, but then working with partners within the market to be able to provide that solution for the client and at least potentially have some form of holistic advice given at an earlier stage to understand that client's need and be able to give a bit of a roadmap for that client. Because, let's be honest, if you've got an interest only mortgage and it's getting to that 12 months, that's potentially quite a quite a worrying thing to look to have to consider. And the earlier we can have that conversation and give that roadmap to that client, the more at ease they're going to feel.

Graham Bradley:

And that's a big piece of consumer duty and preventing foreseeable harm so I think that there's definitely a gap there and that potential be something that lenders, if not, are already looking to consider. Yeah, a gap there and that potential will be something that lenders, if not, are already looking to consider.

Paul Glynn:

Yeah, and that's also an issue in terms of what would have been the traditional equity release space to signpost the wider options that are available in the product landscape should they uncover the ability for a customer to make payments. So we should see a flow of customers both ways. But I think it's probably one for us to take into a future podcast, to think that that's a topic to debate a little bit further. So thank you for helping us surface that one between the two of you. So a last question for me, really just to get your thoughts. If we've got first time borrowers who are now getting older as you said earlier, liz, and they're borrowing bigger multiples for longer, and they're borrowing bigger multiples for longer, that is a challenge. So what impact does that have, even on bringing some of the things which we probably feel are quite long and distant considerations into the equation? So, power of attorney and care, what do we need to do? As a final set of thoughts, just to ensure that those are on people's um horizon planning as well I think very much.

Graham Bradley:

So, taking back to what what liz was saying earlier, definitely I think there needs to potentially be a bit more movement in, say, signposting specific age, um timescale. So say, for example, with your first time buyer you're going to be, there's potentially a 40-year mortgage which is in front of you, but as that progresses you might get into your 50s, your 60s. There definitely needs to be more signposting potentially from lenders saying have you, have you sought holistic advice? Have you looked at the wider market? These are the options which are available to you. So at least then it gives the clients the understanding, as they're going through their mortgage journey and clearing their mortgage or things might have changed that that holistic advice is given. So again, it gives that client the education piece to know what they can actually do going forward, because a 40-year term mortgage is quite, quite a lengthy period of time for anyone to look to consider when they're taking it out. And when you're a first-time it's not necessarily a thing you're thinking about, but as time goes on it'll become more and more apparent.

Paul Glynn:

Thanks, Graham. Any final thoughts from you, Liz?

Liz Wilkie:

Yeah, with first-time buyers it's brilliant, but it's very much an instant need. Way back when I remember buying my first house, I wasn't thinking about retirement or when I'd retire. And along the journey, when I've topped my mortgage up to move house or do work on my house, I haven't thought about the end impact on when I will be able to retire and what that would affect my pension, what my forecast might. So I think pulling it back and sort of adding into your standard mortgage advice process really that you're constantly keeping in mind a retirement age, it's not just let's put my retirement age up because I want to do this now, it's building in. At what point do you want to stop and where will your health housing wealth come in? You know there's some fantastic innovation in the first time buyer space and you know large income multiples and fixed rates for long periods of time are really helping people get on the property ladder, which is absolutely slashing. But as life changes and diversifies and if you've already got a 35 year mortgage term again, you're running out of options to top it off. So I think it's building in the regular signposting to say, okay, realistically, you can't extend it this way. It's planting the seed, to think about what options will be available. It's thinking about a full plan rather than a working life plan.

Liz Wilkie:

Your mortgage doesn't necessarily have to finish when you finish work. There are solutions that are there for you and you know we're still. We're still waiting for everything to fall into place and settle back down rate wise and and there'll be many variances for first time buyers with rates, as we all know through our mortgage journey. But I think it's just always sort of communicating and talking about the product suite as a whole. You know there are silos of products for first-time buyers. There are remortgage only products. There are later life products as well. So let's bring them into the conversations, let's talk about them, so people are thinking about them before they're reacting to a situation. You know that that it's actually. It is a positive thing that it's a solution rather than just a. I need x. This is my only path to find it. That was a long answer, sorry no, brilliant, thank you both.

Paul Glynn:

Um, I mean I, this has been a brilliant conversation and there's been a a number of things that have resonated with me as I've made a couple of notes as we've gone through.

Paul Glynn:

So I mean we opened the conversation saying how broad the opportunity was, how important that detailed conversation, comprehensive conversations as I have been badging them for for the last few months, so how important they are um, how they drive out the right signposting and how important that is and and that only comes from detailed conversations um and a personalized approach to, to a personalized recommendation, so that conversation around health being different to vulnerability, um and in a consumer gt world, it's it's it's important to drive both factors through through that conversation style, um and how, how importantly, as we've got to the last part of this conversation, given the complex needs and the complex nature of some of those conversations and and the options that could follow, whilst it's the firm's right to to operate in whatever part of the market it wants to, um, whether you're a lender, um with a book of interest only business, whether you're um an equity release advisor or a mortgage advisor, it's really important to signpost the value of advice through that, through that journey.

Paul Glynn:

So lots of takeaways for me, and thank you both for giving up your time today for a brilliant conversation. So, liz, thank you, graham, thank you, and we look forward to seeing you both on future episodes. Thank you for listening to the master later life lending podcast. If you've enjoyed our comprehensive conversations, then please take a moment to review and to rate us on your favorite podcast platform. Your support will help others discover the show, so don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode, and follow us on social media for exclusive content. Thank you for joining us through series two of the master later life lending podcast, and join us again for series three, where we will have more comprehensive conversations.